Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: You're listening to the Known Legacy podcast brought to you by Known Legacy Ministries. For more information, go to knownlegacy.org now here's your hosts, Bill and Travis. Good morning everybody. Welcome to the Known Legacy Podcast. We want to help you wake up, gear up and come alive to who God created you to be. We are so excited about today's 105 degree day outside as we're podcast and our guests. I know I'm already sweating. I, I got that, like lip sweat.
[00:00:27] Speaker B: Oh, I'm getting there. And honestly, if you're watching this on YouTube or if you happen to see this on Facebook, Bill and I are for the first time ever on the same side of the table.
[00:00:36] Speaker A: We can do a high five. High five.
[00:00:37] Speaker C: Hey.
[00:00:38] Speaker B: All right. Look at that. So this is because we have a guest in house today and we are very, very excited about the conversations we're going to have over the next few podcasts with this guest. But before we get there, as always, you can check us out on infoanelegacy.org if you have questions, comments, concerns or prayer requests. Thank you guys. For those who've been sending those. If you want to follow us, Facebook. We're also on Instagram, we're also on YouTube. You know all the stuff that you need to do if you'd like to give us a rating. It helps the algorithm gods kind of push us out to other people that might like it and we always appreciate that. But Bill, I know there's some ministry things that we have going on as well.
[00:01:11] Speaker A: We got going on. Well, a couple of things. Want to invite you guys to our Thursday morning men's group online on the phone at 6:45 called the Adrenaline Shot. It's an easy way to connect. If you feel like you're in a journey, that you want to grow spiritually, you want to connect with other guys, this is for you. So man, we'll put the link below as well as. If you're in that moment. Now that kids are back to school and life is back to normal, we want to challenge you to see where you are, to see how to finish 2026. Well, and we have a wake up guide and seven day reset that we have developed just for you. Click the link below. It's a free download for you to begin to challenge yourself and go, God, what are you doing in my life? As well as the book more than you. We'd love you guys to check that out. Pick it up. We have a 10 session study guide that is free. If you want more information about that info ownlegacy. And we'd love to connect about those specific things.
[00:02:00] Speaker B: So. Awesome. So, without further ado, I believe it is. Drumroll, please. Time for question of the day.
[00:02:08] Speaker A: Question of the day.
[00:02:10] Speaker B: This one. Okay. So this morning I got to kind of prep this one. So I've been really disciplined with my morning routine and getting my wife out of the house, going to school, get her sent out, and I go to the back porch and I. Before it gets really hot, I get myself a cup of coffee, get a cigar, do my Bible study stuff. And. And there was something I was reading in Second Corinthians this morning, and it. It struck me, like there's a whole list of people who have helped form us to become the men that we are today. Some good that we talk about, some bad. But if there's one guy that you could go back in history and thank for the impact that they've made on you, and maybe it was an impact you didn't realize at the time. Maybe it was something that. Maybe it was a comment, maybe as a question, maybe it was painful at the time. So there was resentment there. But now that you are where you are, you're like, man, if I could go back and thank that guy, I would absolutely go thank him because of. That's it. So that's my question of the day. That's a really good one, by the way. Kyle, in the corner. Welcome.
[00:03:07] Speaker D: Hello. Hello.
[00:03:07] Speaker B: You got anyone that you're thinking, I'm
[00:03:11] Speaker D: gonna go with my stepdad.
[00:03:14] Speaker A: Oh.
[00:03:16] Speaker D: So obviously there's resentment when you have, at a young age, new father come in.
[00:03:21] Speaker B: Correct.
[00:03:22] Speaker D: Other father's still there. But I resented at the time, I didn't like him. But looking back, he. He did a lot of good things for me in that. That period of time.
[00:03:33] Speaker B: Nice.
It's a good call, Kyle.
[00:03:35] Speaker D: I may reach out to him.
[00:03:36] Speaker B: Bill, can you beat that?
[00:03:38] Speaker A: Man? That was good.
You know, it's funny, I. So I've always talked about my buddy Joe, who is super instrumental in my life, but there's another guy. His name is Rich. Rich Paulson. We actually had him on the podcast. And I remember as I was trying to figure out what I wanted to do with my life, and I wasn't sure if I was going to stay in New York or California. And I remember I was working for him, and he pulled me aside and he was just like, man, what. What is God doing with you? And I was like, oh, I don't really know. He really started to. It was. It was not even just one Moment it was every day that he was like, come and sit in my office for five minutes and let's have a conversation. It was just literally five minutes. But, I mean, this is a guy who I wanted to be like. And so here I am going, man. The way that he responded to me daily in those little moments was like, I want to be different. And so it wasn't one question, it was many. But I do remember that first time. And he was like, what are you doing with your life? Kind of thing. And I was like, oh, no. And so that really set me on. But I'm glad he did. I'm glad he spoke out in that. What about you, man?
[00:04:36] Speaker B: Well, I think for me, I have a few. But the one I'm going to land on is teacher that I had at Rockford Lutheran High School in Rockford, Illinois. A little corrupt town in a very big corrupt state. Anyways, and he was my religion teacher. His name was Marty Colway. And he was a basketball coach as well. A very successful basketball coach. In fact, he went on to coach at Concordia University in Nebraska. Very successful career there. Anyways, I was 16 years old. I was in the process of moving from Rockford, Illinois, to San Diego, California. It was kind of like the last day of school.
And I'm walking out. All the tears have been shed, all the hugs have been given to my classmates. And I'm walking out and he calls me into his room, right?
And he goes, hey, Harchin. They always called me by my last name. I don't know why. Harchin, come here. I'm like, oh, man. I was like, what up, coach? And he goes, well, I just have to tell you, I think for you in California, your faith is going to be sink or swim.
You either going to lean into this, embrace it, and live it the rest of your life, or you're gonna let it go. And I just wanna let you know, I hope you swim.
[00:05:44] Speaker A: And that was it.
[00:05:45] Speaker B: That was all he said. And I remember, like, packing up the house. And that comment was floating around in my head. I remember moving to the house and I had, like, the smallest house. I had three sisters, all older. It was a really small house in California, and it basically was a closet that I was living in. And on the closet door I painted sink or swim. Because every day I need to be reminded of that. So I'd go back to Marty and I would say, thank you, sir, for speaking life into me instead of death.
[00:06:10] Speaker A: It is so imperative that we do this. Like, we have those. I know that I'm done for the day, so. But we have those moments that God like pricks us and says, go do this right? And we don't. And man, none of these were big things. That's the part that's so funny. It was just a one time thing that now in sixth grade. But he saw value in a sixth grader like this. You know, Rich saw value in me as just some guy that was working for him, literally weeding the yard, you know, reading the garden. Kyle, you know, your stepfather, like, probably didn't realize what he said mattered, you know, I'm saying. But I think we forget the value of that in the moments. And it even makes me more excited about our guest who's on today because I feel like there are some moments in his life that I. Even before we started talking, I'm like, I can't wait to get this thing recorded. It's gonna be amazing. So, man, we are so excited. Bill, why don't you. Let's introduce our guest, Bill from Narrow Gate. We're so excited and grateful to have you on the podcast, man.
[00:07:03] Speaker C: Grateful to be here in cool Texas.
[00:07:08] Speaker B: What a. Not starting off strong. You're lying pretty hard right there.
[00:07:11] Speaker C: Hey, just for the record, it was 72 degrees in middle Tennessee this morning.
72.
[00:07:16] Speaker B: It's coming. It's coming. I'm starting to put up my fall decorations because I'm hoping that that will inspire mother nature to bring some cooling in.
[00:07:25] Speaker C: I walked outside this morning, put my finger to the wind. It was a.
Where we're at right now just by my. By my explanation.
[00:07:32] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. As one who's pre insulated, I'm ready for the cooler weather.
[00:07:36] Speaker A: We live in a sauna. That's all we do.
[00:07:38] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah.
[00:07:38] Speaker A: That's crazy. Well, Bill Spencer, we're so grateful to have you on today and a part of man, hearing your story. When we first talked, man, we had connected over, over email and I was like, I gotta get this guy on. This is incredible. So, man, share a little bit about your story. Share kind of how things started. I know we heard a little bit, but I think our listeners would love to hear everything you already said to us before this, so.
[00:07:57] Speaker B: Well, I would love to know the question of the day.
[00:08:00] Speaker A: Question of the day. Question of the day.
[00:08:01] Speaker C: Yeah. What I would love to know is how we're going to coordinate this conversation because every time Travis says bill, I look over real fast. Yeah. Like it's really. I'm gonna have some whiplash before this day is over with, man. So we've got to have some kind of.
[00:08:13] Speaker B: Duly noted. I'll put my hand on his shoulder because he's sitting next to me.
[00:08:16] Speaker A: Was it. Was it the Newhart show? This is my brother, Darryl. This is my other brother, Darryl.
[00:08:20] Speaker D: Yeah.
[00:08:21] Speaker A: Okay, cool.
[00:08:21] Speaker C: Yeah, that's it.
Mine's gonna be really, really weird, but I was involved in music a lot when I was young and actually was fortunate enough to have the same vocal coach from 8th grade all the way through college.
[00:08:33] Speaker D: Wow.
[00:08:33] Speaker C: Yeah. I mean, it's just unheard of, and there's a big, long story behind it. But that vocal coach, his name is Clay Dawson. Dr. Dawson.
That guy. This is gonna be a weird one. But when you walk in his studio for your voice lessons or for anything, have conversation. There was a pencil drawing hanging up on the.
[00:08:50] Speaker D: On the wall.
[00:08:51] Speaker C: The pencil drawing was of a conductor standing lectern, baton up, sheet music spilling off the thing, Right? And in front of him is a pig with a bow tie and little tuxedo tails looking up at him. And there was a caption underneath.
[00:09:05] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:09:06] Speaker C: It said, never try to teach a pig how to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig.
[00:09:15] Speaker A: That's pretty deep, considering.
[00:09:17] Speaker C: So why is that meaningful?
[00:09:19] Speaker B: Oh, man.
[00:09:19] Speaker C: Man. If you think about what Proverbs says, that we should train up a child in the way they should go, the way that's right for them. I think sometimes we try to force people into slots where they don't belong.
Wake up to who you're supposed to be.
That pencil drawing has never. It's like what you guys said just a couple podcasts ago when you were talking about, okay, what did God talk to you about through the summer? What did you realize when you said, slowed down long enough to realize that if I could just be present in the moment, stop worrying about church expansion or calendar or what's to do next and just be present that everything would change. Well, sometimes when you slow down just long enough to be present, what you guys said was, it's not in the big events that the memories are formed. It's not in the first last that kids walk away and go forever. It's not that it's in, hey, we shared a pint of ice cream in the park.
[00:10:10] Speaker B: The mundane.
[00:10:12] Speaker C: It's the moments, right?
[00:10:14] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:10:15] Speaker C: That pencil drawing, nobody said anything. That dude just had it on the wall and he believed it with all his heart. And so it transferred over to me saying, if you'll find the way somebody's supposed to go and figure out how you can specialize in Helping them become who they're supposed to be. And that's the premise that all of Nergate's built off of everything.
Everything. And so that pencil drawing never leaves my. It's hilarious when you see it, but it never really goes away because all we're trying to do is figure out, am I trying to teach a pig how to sing right now? Do I need to back off and realize pigs do some things really well.
[00:10:48] Speaker B: Yep.
[00:10:49] Speaker C: How about if we just let them do that really well instead of trying to force them into what we think they ought to be? So, yeah. Thanks, man.
[00:10:55] Speaker A: I wish we were connected in the same heart somehow in the ministry, but, man, that's powerful. That's powerful. Thank you so much for welcome, man. That's. Yeah, that's already. He's already dropping bombs, and we're only like three minutes in. What's going on here? Well, Bill, share some of your story. Share how you came to know Jesus, your journey. I know you share some of that. Feel free to share more of that. We'd love to hear kind of how you came to know the Lord, your story of how you even started even Narrowgate and where they came from.
[00:11:20] Speaker C: I could share my story. This would be a two podcast episode if I shared my whole story, because then I just talk.
[00:11:25] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:11:26] Speaker C: And nobody wants to hear that.
[00:11:27] Speaker B: So.
[00:11:28] Speaker A: I don't know. The more I'm hearing from you, the more I'm okay with you talking.
[00:11:31] Speaker C: So maybe we just squeeze it down a little bit.
[00:11:34] Speaker B: Sounds good.
[00:11:34] Speaker C: It's like I was telling you guys before we started, I was born a Catholic.
Born to a Catholic family. My father got sick when I was pretty young and died when I was pretty young and left us in bad, bad straits.
[00:11:45] Speaker B: Right.
[00:11:46] Speaker C: It was.
[00:11:46] Speaker B: It's hard.
[00:11:47] Speaker C: Yeah, it's hard. And it wasn't just hard emotionally. Like, it was hard. Meaning we didn't have money for food. Like, I don't remember it, but my mom has told me there were a lot of weeks where three, four days a week we'd eat oatmeal. That's what we had.
[00:11:58] Speaker B: Gotcha.
[00:11:59] Speaker C: And we stayed a lot. I mean, you know, not like, I'm damp. Well, maybe I am damaged. I don't know. That's for you guys to figure out by the end of this podcast.
[00:12:05] Speaker A: So far, I'd say no.
[00:12:06] Speaker C: Yeah, you keep going. Well, you know, time will tell. Truth over time. That's the equation. Right? Truth over time. Okay. So went along in life, my mom met a guy who was a. He was an unlocated Lineman for the telephone company.
[00:12:21] Speaker D: Yep.
[00:12:21] Speaker C: And because he was an unlocated lineman, it means he's the lowest of the lowest of the low on the totem pole. He's living out of a hotel room and climbing telephone poles in the ice. And these are just hard working, Midwest, poverty stricken family.
That's what we came out of.
But they fell in love and he agreed to fall in love with my mom even though me and my brother came in tow, which was not a good thing. Like, trust me, that's not. I wouldn't have done it. But he did it because he's a lot braver than me.
And so they were courting and planning on getting married when he got a letter in the mail announcing that he had received an all expense paid, one way trip to the Pacific Rim,
[00:13:01] Speaker B: better known as Vietnam.
[00:13:02] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:13:03] Speaker C: When he was better known for those
[00:13:05] Speaker A: whose geography is rough. Right.
[00:13:09] Speaker C: So while he was in basic training, he married my mom so that we would get the family benefit and that way we'd have money for food.
[00:13:15] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah, that makes sense.
[00:13:16] Speaker C: So he goes to Vietnam there for a minute, and you don't come back the same. Right, right. But he didn't come back nearly as hurt as some guys did.
But they came back with this same ethic that they were born into, this hard working ethic. And so my dad figured out that there were two kinds of people in the world. It was hard working and no good.
And he figured out real quickly I was in the second category. And I agreed with him because I wasn't going to be hard working. That didn't sound great. So anyway, they came up working really hard and I got it. Like, I just got to give kudos to my family for a minute. My dad took one college class in his life and it was a bookkeeping class, Bookkeeping 100. Because he wanted to know if his accountant was ripping him off.
And he got a B at that. He didn't even get an A.
But my dad knew how to work really hard. And he taught us growing up, if you can make it work on paper, you can make it work. Just never forget it's gonna be work. Because that's the ethic of life is work.
[00:14:13] Speaker B: Right? Right.
[00:14:14] Speaker C: My dad wound up becoming the city council chairman for two terms, Mayor of our little hometown for two terms. Osteopathic medicine was founded in the hometown where I grew up. So there's a medical college there. My dad sat on the board of trustees for osteopathic medical education Oversight with a b in bookkeeping 100 yeah. Because he was just that sharp.
[00:14:39] Speaker B: Right.
[00:14:40] Speaker C: Like as far as political connection, getting things done, he just knew how to get started.
[00:14:44] Speaker B: Just a dumb fisherman.
[00:14:45] Speaker C: He made it work. Yeah. Peter all over again.
[00:14:49] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:14:50] Speaker C: So that's how I came up. The problem is, my dad was a Baptist and we were Catholics.
So when he come back from Vietnam, we would go to early mass and then we'd go to Sunday school, and then we'd go to church and then we'd come home. And as everybody knows, that will quickly cause schizophrenia in the brain of a six year old.
So we had to make a choice. So we chose Baptist. Right. So we came up Baptist. And I'll be honest with you, I hated every minute of it. I just absolutely loathed and despised every minute of it. As quickly as I could get out of that, I got out.
And that led to a bad season of life from 16 to 20 was. That's not a good chapter.
[00:15:30] Speaker B: Grace years. We call those grace years.
[00:15:35] Speaker C: I'm glad you called it that.
In retrospect, we call it stupid.
[00:15:40] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:15:41] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:15:41] Speaker B: But,
[00:15:43] Speaker C: yeah. So I was 20 when I kind of woke up and realized I'm probably not going to make it through this.
[00:15:49] Speaker B: Right. Right.
[00:15:50] Speaker C: One way or another, this is going to change.
[00:15:52] Speaker D: Right.
[00:15:54] Speaker C: So either freedom or breath are going to stop one of the two. And something's. Something's got to change.
[00:16:00] Speaker B: Right.
[00:16:01] Speaker C: So I saw this dude walking through the hallway of the dorm that I was living in. I lost my apartment. Like, a lot of things went south. And so the dorm was the only option because I was currently enrolled. So I got into a dorm. This guy that I knew that I used to run with sometimes in college, he was on the track team named Carlton Brooks from St. Louis, Missouri. Shout out to Carlton. He's carrying a Bible, walking through the hallway, and I stopped him. I said, hey, you going to a Bible study? He said, no, I just came from one. And I said, well, next time you go, will you stop and get me? He said, we have them every night.
[00:16:30] Speaker B: Stop.
[00:16:31] Speaker C: And I said, well, come by and get me.
[00:16:32] Speaker B: Wow.
[00:16:33] Speaker C: So I went, I went, I went, I went, I went.
Turns out it was a Church of Christ campus ministry that's actually been written up in some cult books. It's called the Boston Church of the King Movement. So you can go look it up.
[00:16:46] Speaker A: Okay. Okay.
[00:16:47] Speaker C: Super militant, super legalistic, super demanding.
So I got really involved in this thing because all of a sudden I had some kind of purpose where I could succeed. Right, Right.
[00:16:56] Speaker B: And I learned tangible, clear goals, and it was work.
[00:16:59] Speaker C: Well, yeah, man. It's work. Yeah.
[00:17:01] Speaker B: A lot of. Put a lot of hard work into it. A lot of work and disciplining yourself and. And that can absolutely lead to. To whatever. Until it doesn't.
[00:17:09] Speaker C: Yeah. Frog in a pot, though. You can't live in an environment and not be changed. So I learned that work from my dad, Right.
So I get pretty good at it. I'm highlighting all.
[00:17:19] Speaker D: Look.
[00:17:20] Speaker C: I used to sit with my Bible and get dirty fingers and lick them and, like, crumple up the pages and highlight crap at random so that people would think I'm studying really hard.
And it showed really well. So I got invited to the national convention of this thing.
[00:17:33] Speaker A: Wow.
[00:17:33] Speaker C: Right? That wound up. I wound up hooking up with a couple of guys, and we made a little singing group and started traveling around the country. And I got to sort of see behind the scenes.
Somebody handed me a book while I was doing this little Church of Christ tour thing called Free in Christ by Cecil B. Hook.
And Cecil was a retired Church of Christ preacher that wrote this book and said. During my tenure preaching from the pulpit, I didn't really say what I thought was true because I was worried about income from my family security and my job, that kind of stuff.
[00:18:05] Speaker A: Oh, yeah.
[00:18:06] Speaker C: And now in New Braunfels, there's so many pastors. Shout out to Texas. Right down the road in New Braunfels, they said, hey, we'll give you a place to live. We'll give you a stipend. We want you to write this book. And they were giving them away for free.
[00:18:16] Speaker B: Really.
[00:18:16] Speaker C: So I read this book, and for the first time, I couldn't win the argument because it was about grace. Wow. Right?
[00:18:23] Speaker A: Yep.
[00:18:24] Speaker B: Yep.
[00:18:24] Speaker C: Here we go. So that really throws things off track. So I jumped ship off that one.
I play the role of a hermit out in Oregon for a while.
I come back to Nashville to get into another industry and did that for a season. Jumped out of that and started our own. My own business. Our own business with my wife Stacy. Started that in 98. And in 2002, we got tricked into going to church. Back to church. Now, remember, I haven't been to church for 14 years.
[00:18:53] Speaker B: How did they trick you?
[00:18:55] Speaker C: So we're writing financial. Financial controls and services software for this company.
[00:19:01] Speaker B: Right.
[00:19:02] Speaker C: And they're doing really well. They're one of our best paying clients. And they said, we delivered the latest iteration of the software, and they said, hey, what are y' all doing for dinner?
Now, when a good paying client asks you on a Wednesday what you're Doing for dinner? What's your answer?
[00:19:16] Speaker B: I'm eating with you. Yep. Absolutely.
[00:19:18] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:19:19] Speaker A: What are we doing exactly?
[00:19:20] Speaker C: I don't know.
[00:19:20] Speaker A: What are you telling me, baby?
[00:19:21] Speaker C: Italian, Thai? What are you into?
He said, I'm gonna call my wife and kids and they're all gonna meet us. Like, great. The family's involved. We're in deep now, right? We're doing good.
So we go to dinner. Turns out dinner is in the basement of a church building on Old Hickory Boulevard in Nashville, Tennessee. Covert ops called Christ Church. Christ Church is an ex Pentecostal church that refused to demand that women wear their hair up in a bun and a dress down on their ankles and all that kind of stuff.
So we went to church in the basement of this church building as a fundraiser for a homeless Vietnam vets outreach thing Nashville's doing. And we had that horrible spaghetti dinner. You know, the water in the bottom of the plate.
[00:20:05] Speaker B: Oh, yeah.
[00:20:06] Speaker C: And all I was thinking was, how do we get out of here? How do we get out of here? We're super uncomfortable. And we got done.
And the client said, okay, you ready to go upstairs? Like, oh, man, upstairs? I don't. Sure, I guess we go into a 3,000 seat auditorium.
There is a semicircular stage, no joke, with a red velvet curtain draped in front of it.
[00:20:30] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:20:30] Speaker C: And the place is packed on a Wednesday night. On a Wednesday night. There are 3,000 people in this.
[00:20:37] Speaker A: Gosh. So it's packed, it's packed out. It's packed.
[00:20:39] Speaker C: It's packed on a Wednesday night. And I hear.
And these voices of angel. Oh, this big thing starts happening, right? And the velvet curtain comes up and there's a 200 voice robed choir.
[00:20:53] Speaker B: Oh, man.
[00:20:54] Speaker C: 14 piece band and four dudes standing in front of golden thrones on the stage. And there's. And the drum started.
There's 200 white people.
[00:21:04] Speaker B: Such a musician.
[00:21:05] Speaker A: You're so good at this.
[00:21:07] Speaker C: And they start swaying back and forth, you know, because they come out of Pentecostal roots, so they think they're black, but they're not. And they're swaying all over the place and they're singing. And this lady jumps up behind me and Stacy and goes, jesus, Jesus, Jesus, Jesus, Jesus, Jesus.
And I thought he probably heard you the first time.
And I was gripping my wife's hand. I think I cut the circulation off in her hand.
[00:21:33] Speaker B: Like, get out.
[00:21:36] Speaker A: Watery spaghetti.
[00:21:37] Speaker B: There's so many, like. I'm sure there were so many triggers that were going on in your mind and in your experience of like, it's all a charade. I know how the sausage is made. This is nothing but.
But for some reason, you stuck around.
[00:21:49] Speaker C: Yeah, I wanted the money.
[00:21:51] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:21:51] Speaker C: We're doing it for the money. We're doing it for the money.
[00:21:53] Speaker B: Doing it for the client.
[00:21:54] Speaker C: Turns out Jim Cymbla was the speaker that night from Brooklyn. No way. He had brought the last survivor from the World Trade center collapse with him. And it was the anniversary of the 911 collapse. It was September of 2012.
[00:22:06] Speaker B: Wow.
[00:22:08] Speaker D: Whoa.
[00:22:08] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:22:09] Speaker C: Had no idea wow left that night. Couldn't have told you what Jim said.
What? This lady from Trinidad and Tobago who was the last survivor. What she said. Couldn't have told you a song that was sung.
My wife is one of the best business people I've ever been around in my life. She's just ice cold. Like, that's why I loved her.
[00:22:30] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:22:30] Speaker C: And we were in business together.
[00:22:32] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:22:33] Speaker C: She was balling like, we're not pretty criers. We're snot bubble criers.
[00:22:39] Speaker B: Familiar.
[00:22:39] Speaker C: She was not bubble crying. And I was snot bubble crying. And we had an encounter with God.
And we had to look in the mirror.
They say there's no way to see the truth of who you are except in the reflection of his image.
And we had to stare at God and James.
[00:22:56] Speaker B: Wow.
[00:22:57] Speaker C: What we saw back, man, it was horrible.
And that's how we went home.
Matter of fact, we snuck out. We didn't even say goodbye to anybody.
The client called us the next morning. My wife answered the phone.
We actually had a phone in our house. Because this is 2002.
[00:23:14] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:23:14] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:23:14] Speaker C: Hey, are you guys okay? And she starts crying.
[00:23:17] Speaker B: No.
[00:23:19] Speaker C: Started all over again.
We snot bubble cried for a month. Like, I'm not exaggerating every day.
[00:23:27] Speaker A: Just weeping on your face kind of.
Wow.
[00:23:32] Speaker C: About week three, somebody had given us a copy of the Divine Conspiracy by Dallas Willard. So we're reading
[00:23:40] Speaker A: Willard.
[00:23:40] Speaker B: So good start light, simply easy.
Max Lucado. Right there.
[00:23:47] Speaker C: We were knelt.
We were knelt down in front of our couch, praying. Snot bubble crying. We had to get rid of the couch eventually. Snot bubble crying in the couch. And we said, God, we get it.
Yeah, we get it.
The company, we're growing. We're only growing to sell it.
[00:24:03] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:24:05] Speaker C: The house we live in, we're gonna sell that and buy another one back out in Oregon where we can run away from people because we didn't like them very much.
[00:24:11] Speaker B: Yep.
[00:24:12] Speaker C: The car we drive, we're gonna get a different one. The money comes into our account and back out. Everything's transient. Even the breath we drew in to say this prayer, we have to give back.
So since it's all yours and we can't deny that, would you just do through us whatever you want to do with everything that is yours?
And that's where it started.
[00:24:36] Speaker B: So a thread that I would love to pull on, because I think you have a very unique perspective on it, is this idea of there's a trap that the church falls into over and over and over again. You see it from the very beginning with Peter and Paul. And it's this idea of grace is almost too good to believe. So I have to do something.
Right. And then we have really good intended. Sometimes men who will go up and say, well, I can leverage that to actually to the point where they miss grace completely.
[00:25:05] Speaker C: Sure.
[00:25:06] Speaker B: So why do you think it's so intoxicating for so many churches, regardless of denomination, to leverage works over this amazing life transformation of grace? And how do. What's the antidote to that for guys that may be wrestling with that? Because most of us guys, I think part of it's how we're wired. We're wired to work. It's part of the curse. And so we think that salvation somehow comes into my work instead of realizing, no, the work is completely done. It's done by someone else.
[00:25:32] Speaker A: Done. Yeah.
[00:25:33] Speaker B: And now you got to receive the gift of that. Yeah. So I would just love some of your thoughts on that.
[00:25:39] Speaker C: It's not a short answer. Is that okay?
[00:25:40] Speaker B: That's.
[00:25:41] Speaker D: I'm.
[00:25:41] Speaker B: I am.
[00:25:41] Speaker A: I'm.
[00:25:42] Speaker B: I'm on for the ride, man. Let's go. Go.
[00:25:44] Speaker C: All right.
First John 2. I write this to you little children.
[00:25:49] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:25:49] Speaker C: Because your sins are forgiven the pidean. Right?
[00:25:51] Speaker D: Right.
[00:25:52] Speaker C: Little ones.
I write this to you young men because you're overcoming the wicked one. And I write this to you fathers, y', all, because you are self proclaimed old people. Although I think I could be both y' all's dad if I'm not sure. We have to check it out.
[00:26:07] Speaker A: I don't have a comment for that right now.
[00:26:08] Speaker C: Just keep going because you've known him.
Genesis 3. Adam knew his wife and she bore him a son. And they didn't write like it's intimate. It's not known him like you know him.
Okay. That's the progression. And even repeats it just in case we miss it.
So just hang on to that for a minute. Just. We're going to come back to that in just a minute. You guys both have kids?
[00:26:33] Speaker B: Yep.
[00:26:33] Speaker C: Yep. Remember when they were like really little like three. I got a buddy, he's a worship leader back in middle Tennessee, and his. His kid used to tell him I don't became his new favorite phrase.
[00:26:44] Speaker D: Right.
[00:26:45] Speaker C: And so he would say, I don't, and then he just fill in with whatever because complete sentences were not in his world yet.
[00:26:50] Speaker B: Right?
[00:26:50] Speaker C: So I don't. Green beans, Daddy. I don't know. You do green beans. You know, that's that kind of thing, Right.
So I thought the best way I know to explain it is this.
How come he didn't look at his son at the ripe old age of three and say, now look. Vitamin A, niacin, thiamine. These are all core building blocks of a healthy phospholipid structure in red blood corpuscles, which is the greatest carrier of oxygen. And how come he didn't explain that to his kids? Understanding why green beans are important.
[00:27:23] Speaker B: Right?
[00:27:23] Speaker A: Right.
[00:27:24] Speaker C: Because he's three.
[00:27:25] Speaker B: Right. Couldn't understand it. He was just looking at it.
[00:27:27] Speaker A: Can't rationalize it. Yeah.
[00:27:29] Speaker B: Let me have a crayon. I'll eat that.
[00:27:30] Speaker D: Yeah.
[00:27:34] Speaker C: What if.
What if.
What if that man I got. I said this on a podcast and got in trouble one time. But that's okay.
What if laws are really placeholders until principles can be ingested?
[00:27:49] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:27:50] Speaker C: And what if because we're pied in the little ones and we're learning to ingest the young men, we haven't fully yet ingested the mothers and fathers, the old ones, the principal.
Because once the principal is completely ingested, you don't really need the rule anymore.
[00:28:09] Speaker B: Right.
[00:28:10] Speaker C: You love your wife, right?
[00:28:11] Speaker B: Right.
[00:28:12] Speaker C: So what would you choose to do? To hurt her? Willingly?
[00:28:16] Speaker B: Nothing.
[00:28:16] Speaker C: Grace, Right?
Now you understand Grace?
[00:28:20] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:28:20] Speaker C: When you fall completely and maturely in love.
[00:28:24] Speaker B: Fascinating.
[00:28:25] Speaker C: With God, grace just is. The laws are. Look, Jesus kept the commandments. No, he fulfilled.
[00:28:36] Speaker B: Correct.
[00:28:37] Speaker A: The law. Yeah.
[00:28:38] Speaker B: Correct.
[00:28:38] Speaker A: Yeah. No, I love. I love that you're saying that because we talk about it a lot. It's. I think we've made it so darn difficult in the church that here's these lists, you know, like even, like the. Don't, don't drink, don't smoke, don't chew, don't hang with those who do.
[00:28:52] Speaker B: Do you do. Don't drink, don't smoke.
[00:28:54] Speaker A: But. But I remember you this analogy a lot. And you guys have heard me say it. Like, the minute I saw my wife and I was smitten, I was in love with her. No one had to say, now, here's the 11 things you have to do. And our goal here, even Is like, if we just help men understand who they are, we don't have to legislate morality for them. We don't have to try and find a way for them to go, here's the things you don't do. We know what not to do.
[00:29:18] Speaker B: Right.
[00:29:19] Speaker A: And I think you're right. It's that simple. But we've made it so difficult because I think. And even as you're speaking, I think because it's a system that you can almost control somebody in.
[00:29:27] Speaker B: Correct.
[00:29:27] Speaker A: If you put fear in their mind of, well, you better show up on these days. You better do this. Especially if you're in the kids ministry. You better show up and serving kids, because Jesus will be really, really mad at you if you don't do that. But I'm being a little bit facetious there, but this idea of. Yeah, yeah, a little bit.
[00:29:43] Speaker B: I feel like you just went to a church service where they did a hard sell on.
[00:29:47] Speaker A: Exactly, exactly. I didn't thank God. But. But. So this wasn't pointing anybody. But I think you're right. You know, there's a theme that's been around for us the last couple of podcasts, and It's. It's Acts 4:13, that these men were astounded because they had.
[00:30:00] Speaker C: They were just ordinary men.
[00:30:02] Speaker A: And we talk about it and we use the phrase just dumb fishermen. That's where that came from. It's just. We're just dumb fishermen who everyone just looked at and underestimated until they had been with Jesus.
[00:30:12] Speaker C: With Jesus.
[00:30:13] Speaker A: And so I love that. I love that response.
[00:30:15] Speaker C: Hey, let's go one farther.
[00:30:17] Speaker B: Okay, go for it.
[00:30:18] Speaker C: Not only is it a system to control others in, it's a system to control yourself in. Because if you can put a series of checks in a box, then you get to walk feeling good about who you are.
But that's antithetical to grace. If you feel good about who you are.
[00:30:32] Speaker B: I don't need Jesus.
[00:30:33] Speaker C: Recognize your need for a savior.
[00:30:35] Speaker B: Correct.
[00:30:35] Speaker A: Exactly.
[00:30:36] Speaker C: Read Philippians 3, for crying out loud. You want to compare notes? Look, I trump all y' all like this. All y'. All. That's a Tennessee thing.
[00:30:44] Speaker A: I don't know if y' all said y'. All.
[00:30:45] Speaker B: We translated. We translated.
[00:30:48] Speaker C: I whoop all y' all in that
[00:30:49] Speaker A: battle, the New Texas.
[00:30:50] Speaker C: And I'm telling you, I don't feel good about me. I'm the cheapest of all.
[00:30:55] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:30:55] Speaker C: Yeah, that's. It's antithetical to. Great. Matter of fact, the worst you can feel about now. And that goes.
Sorry I'm gonna go back. Just a second.
[00:31:05] Speaker B: You're good.
[00:31:07] Speaker C: When you understand who you are. One of the things that we focus on with Narragate. There are 17 verses in the New Testament about Christ in me. And they're magnificent, right? The hope of glory. Paul says, in cloud or, I've been crucified with Christ, nevertheless, it's Christ in me.
There are 10 times as many verses. 10 times as many passages. Exactly. There's 170 passages about me in Christ. E. Stanley Jones wrote a book about it in the 1800s, me in Christ. And every one of them is a defining verse. Anyone who is Second Corinthians, 5, 17. In Christ is a new creation. Old things have passed. Behold. Don't glance. Stare.
Clean slate. Brand new. Everything's new. There's one. Read the first 11 verses. The first 11 verses of Ephesians and tell me what happens.
We can do it this way.
Who you want me to pick on, Bill or Travis?
[00:32:05] Speaker B: Bill. All day long. Okay, Bill and Bill show. Go.
[00:32:08] Speaker C: So Bill's gonna pick on Bill.
[00:32:09] Speaker B: Go for it.
[00:32:10] Speaker C: And my other brother.
[00:32:11] Speaker A: My other brother Bill.
[00:32:15] Speaker C: Okay, so your wife's name is Sarah. Sarah. You got a good picture of her?
[00:32:20] Speaker A: Absolutely.
[00:32:21] Speaker C: What she look like?
[00:32:23] Speaker A: She is, man. She is stunning. When it comes to her love for the Lord, I mean.
[00:32:29] Speaker C: No, no, no.
[00:32:30] Speaker A: Tangibly. Oh, brown, brown, brown eyes, brown hair, five one. There you go.
Just absolutely gorgeous.
Sweethearted, amazing smile.
[00:32:40] Speaker C: Just wanted to cement the picture in your mind.
[00:32:41] Speaker A: Yes, absolutely.
[00:32:42] Speaker C: It's locked in, no trouble. I even saw you, like, look down, like, oh, man. My wife.
[00:32:46] Speaker D: Right?
[00:32:47] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:32:47] Speaker C: Okay, so there's the thing.
What happens if you wake up tomorrow and your first thought, I don't know, you're hanging out with him too long and something snapped in your brain.
[00:32:57] Speaker B: Fair point.
[00:32:58] Speaker C: Right? Something snapped and you thought, I am Sarah.
[00:33:03] Speaker A: I think I was crazy.
[00:33:04] Speaker C: No, no, no, no, no. You really believe it.
[00:33:06] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:33:07] Speaker C: You don't think you are crazy.
[00:33:08] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:33:09] Speaker C: Yeah, but you really believe it.
[00:33:10] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:33:10] Speaker C: I am Sarah.
[00:33:11] Speaker B: Okay.
[00:33:13] Speaker C: How do you dress?
[00:33:14] Speaker A: I would dress like her.
[00:33:16] Speaker C: No, like, let's do it really weird.
[00:33:19] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:33:20] Speaker C: When you walk over to the. To the chest of drawers or whatever where you can hear your underwear drawer, which one do you open?
Like, now? It's getting weird, right? Let's don't go any further. Right?
[00:33:28] Speaker B: Yeah, that's.
[00:33:29] Speaker C: But it's getting weird right there. Okay.
[00:33:31] Speaker A: You get it? Yeah.
[00:33:32] Speaker C: What car keys would you grab? What's your cell phone number? What diet do you follow? Who's your best friend? What calendar rules Your day.
See, if you think you're Sarah, you're going to do everything Sarah does.
[00:33:43] Speaker A: You're gonna act like I've given everything, authority over to who she is.
[00:33:48] Speaker C: So you think you're Bill.
Right. So you dress like Bill, act like Bill, smoke cigars like Bill, talk like Bill, think like Bill, drive Bill's car.
[00:33:57] Speaker B: Right.
[00:33:57] Speaker C: Do Bill's job.
Who told you?
Who told you who you are?
[00:34:04] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:34:05] Speaker C: One more. Let's go back.
[00:34:06] Speaker A: No, I'm loving where you're going, processing this.
[00:34:09] Speaker C: You guys are like super theologians.
[00:34:11] Speaker A: No, I'm loving this. Keep it going. This is great.
[00:34:13] Speaker B: Just dumb fishermen.
[00:34:15] Speaker C: Yeah. With college degrees.
God's walking through the garden. He says, hey, Adam, where are you hiding?
[00:34:25] Speaker B: Why?
[00:34:26] Speaker C: Who's afraid? Why?
Because I am naked.
The first existential statement ever made by man about man in the text of Scripture happens right there. And what's God's response?
[00:34:43] Speaker A: How did you know?
[00:34:44] Speaker B: Who told you?
[00:34:45] Speaker A: Exactly.
[00:34:46] Speaker C: Who told you that? The inference being you didn't get that from me. Right, right. That didn't come from me. All of a sudden, a new voice of definition entered into Adam's life.
So how did he act?
Right.
[00:35:00] Speaker B: Fearful. Yeah.
[00:35:02] Speaker C: There it is. Okay. Who told you?
Now I'm going to go back to my 170 verses. I'm just going to go to Ephesians. What happens if you wake up tomorrow and you believe I'm the righteous, redeemed, sanctified, set apart, servant, saint, son of God?
How do you act? Do you need rules?
[00:35:17] Speaker B: No,
[00:35:20] Speaker C: you don't need rules. What you do need basic instructions before leaving Earth. If you're four.
Look, it's great for kids. It's great for young believers, because this is the statement that got me in trouble. And I'm going to say it again. What if the Ten Commandments. Y' all have to deal with this. Okay. Infonelegacy.org what if the Ten Commandments aren't?
Or what if they aren't primarily?
What if they're really just a picture of who and how God is?
Don't put anything ahead of me because I recognize the truth. There isn't anything ahead of me. Don't steal, I don't.
Don't covet, I don't. Don't murder, I don't.
What if that's just God expressing himself? And so instead of vitamin A, thiamine, niacin, it's eat your green beans.
[00:36:11] Speaker B: Right?
[00:36:12] Speaker C: If you practice this, you'll know more fully, young men, how to overcome the wicked one and know me ultimately better in the Process.
[00:36:21] Speaker A: It's almost like it's true. If I can put it this way. Grace filled common sense. Like when Jesus is like, love me and love others. I make it that simple.
[00:36:30] Speaker C: Because if the gospel is stupid, how to. How the gospel is complicated. How do stupid people get to hell?
[00:36:35] Speaker A: Exactly. Like the cookies are at the bottom of the shelf. And so I think you're right. It's this moment to walk in boldness to God. I don't know why. Again, simple, common, ordinary men. But they'd been with Jesus and they all. I know I'm not supposed to do that anymore.
[00:36:47] Speaker C: Right, right.
[00:36:48] Speaker A: And it's not because I was told a list of rules. It's because I have Christ living within me. I love it because Ephesians 2:10 is one of my favorite verses in the world. The fact that we're God's masterpiece. And so to have men understand their value. And I think, you know, as we're finishing this up, I think we need to have a clear call to action of like, what is our. Like the guys listening. What would you say is the call to action to today's podcast right now?
[00:37:09] Speaker C: Oh, man.
[00:37:10] Speaker B: No, no, no.
[00:37:11] Speaker C: The call to action number one is to go back where we started.
That's not bubble cry at the couch.
You guys said it. Yeah, like in that same back, you know, welcome back from the summer podcast. You said if I could just be present and be available to let him do through me. Like here, look, let's talk about this in the next round, okay?
[00:37:31] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:37:31] Speaker C: Galatians 2. 20.
I have been crucified with Christ. Nevertheless, I live, but it's not me. It's Christ in me and the life which I now live in the flesh. I live by faith in the Son of God who loves me, gave himself for me. If you can recognize, it's not necessarily about me living my life for Christ.
It's about Christ living his life through Christ.
[00:37:55] Speaker B: Correct? Correct.
[00:37:56] Speaker C: In the unique fashion that is the filter of my existence.
If you can just get there as call to action today, God, whatever you want to say, whatever you want to do, don't leave my side. Don't let me lose the fact that I can hear your voice now, you're going to fail miserably. It's okay, Grace.
[00:38:18] Speaker B: Yep, yep.
[00:38:19] Speaker C: That's the call to action. Get there.
Then you can go forward in the learning. Get to where your sins are forgiven. Little kid, dance, little baby, dance. Your sins are forgiven.
[00:38:29] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:38:29] Speaker C: But now let's start into young manhood.
[00:38:31] Speaker A: Yeah, it is interesting when we really understand how loved we are, how cherished we are because of the blood of Jesus.
[00:38:38] Speaker C: Can't.
[00:38:39] Speaker A: I know. I'm saying, like, you start walking down this road and it's like you're forced. I don't say forced.
You're left with the option of, I need to sweat this on others. I need to share this with others. Because if we really begin to understand what Christ has done in us, just getting down that road changes everything. And so.
But I think guys look at their lives and go, they still see the who they are, and they don't allow Christ to have redeemed that truly. And so I love this conversation. I love this. I love this. So I think. How do I say it? Like, I feel like we just need
[00:39:13] Speaker B: to come back for part two.
[00:39:15] Speaker A: Well, fall more in love with Jesus, right? Just. Just walk in the truth of who he's called us to be.
[00:39:21] Speaker C: Or maybe Bill, for a couple of guys, maybe falling in love with Jesus for the first time.
Yeah, maybe you've been keeping all the rules, but you haven't actually stood there and stared at him.
I had a buddy that we did this very mindful prayer exercise one time where we had to visualize literally walking up Calvary and kneeling at the cross and feeling the blood of Christ drip as we pray.
Maybe for the first time, you really do get to see him.
Because a guy falling in love with a guy is not comfortable.
[00:39:52] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:39:53] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:39:53] Speaker C: But, man, we're the bride of Christ.
[00:39:55] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:39:56] Speaker C: Come on.
[00:39:56] Speaker A: Yep.
[00:39:57] Speaker C: Maybe it's that for the first time.
[00:39:58] Speaker A: No, it's. This is. This has been really, really good, man.
[00:40:00] Speaker B: So good.
[00:40:01] Speaker A: Love this. Well, we're excited to have you on today. We're excited for part two and this next week, and so hang with us, guys. Thank you so much for listening today. I hope that you will take this to heart and really understand how crazy in love Jesus is with you.
Travis, any final thoughts, gentlemen?
[00:40:18] Speaker B: God bless you. Be his kid.
[00:40:20] Speaker A: Awesome. Have a great week. Check out our our links below and we'll see you guys soon.
Thanks for listening to the Known Legacy podcast. We'd love to hear from you. So email us your questions or comments to infonolegacy.
