[00:00:00] Speaker A: You're listening to the Known Legacy podcast, brought to you by Known Legacy Ministries.
[00:00:04] Speaker B: For more information, go to knownlegacy.org now
[00:00:08] Speaker A: here's your hosts, Bill A. Travis.
[00:00:12] Speaker C: Good morning, everybody.
[00:00:14] Speaker B: I am giddy with excitement about this topic today. By the way, before we get into the banner, the topic today is how do we practical things that we can do to help our kids and minister to our kids if they make decisions that we disagree with.
[00:00:26] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:00:27] Speaker B: Or they're making life choices that we disagree with. And we have an amazing guests and I'm very excited about that. But before, thank you for checking us out. This is Known Legacy. We're happy that you're here today. Bill, good morning.
[00:00:37] Speaker C: Good morning. We're glad to have you here. We want to help you wake up, gear up, and come alive to who God called you to become.
I'm on my fifth coffee and I'm shaking like a Indy 500 driver right now.
Ready to go.
[00:00:49] Speaker B: Good morning. Kyle in the corner.
[00:00:50] Speaker A: Good morning.
[00:00:50] Speaker B: Good morning. Our producer doing fantastic work over there. And as always, you can find us on YouTube, Instagram. You can find us on the Facebook. We have some amazing groups on the Facebook that Bill will talk to us about in just a second. As always, if you want information about Bill's book and speaking engagements, go to Info or just go to knownlegacy.org and if you have questions, comments, concerns, prayer requests, infoolegacy.org Time out.
[00:01:14] Speaker C: And if you want to send us apple cider donuts that we have not received yet.
Apple cider donuts. Infooonelegacy.org I will be happy to send you Kyle's address. Yes. So you can send them to Kyle and we can have them here because I'll eat them all if it's at my house.
[00:01:28] Speaker B: We were poured on Thursday, so sending them on Wednesday, Monday or Tuesday and
[00:01:32] Speaker C: getting here Wednesday would be amazing. So they're fresh. Delicious.
[00:01:36] Speaker B: Anyway, so, Bill, tell us a little some of the mission and ministry stuff that we have going on with.
[00:01:40] Speaker C: Yeah, we have a lot of stuff going on, guys. We believe that God has great things for you. And so the first thing we have is if you feel like, man, God is challenging you to wake up, come alive to what he's called you to. We have a wake up guide and seven day reset that we have free just for you. It's included in the link below. As well as every Thursday, 6:45 in the morning, we have our men's adrenaline shot study. We have guys all over the country that are on that we want you to be there. If you have felt like, man, I should jump on that. You should. You need to.
Nothing to be. To be scared of. They can't even see your face if you're in your boxers. And so. Well, you can't see your face anyways. But you can be anything you need to. We would love you to be a part of that. And as well as we have our known legacy brotherhood, we'd love you to check out. Check out our next events that are coming. I got a lot going on in October. We may be in your area. Yes. But check that
[email protected] so interesting.
[00:02:29] Speaker B: Not a part of the script today, but I just made this observation. So sometimes I listen to our podcasts, and typically I listen to podcasts at like 1.2 or 1.5.
[00:02:37] Speaker C: Yes.
[00:02:38] Speaker B: Speed. And I can't do that with our podcast.
[00:02:40] Speaker C: No, we are too fast.
[00:02:41] Speaker B: We are. So if you're listening at 1.2, back it off just a hair.
[00:02:45] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:02:46] Speaker B: And you'll understand us a little bit better.
[00:02:47] Speaker C: Go back towards me. He's like, wait, what did he say? Amen. Is that the whole podcast? I was like, yeah, we get that. When I had to do my audiobook, I had to do it slower. They're like, you gotta slow down because everyone's gonna listen at one and a half. And I'm like, okay, I don't know how to do this.
[00:03:04] Speaker B: What do I do with my hands? Anyways, Anyways, without further ado, the most important part. Question of the day.
[00:03:10] Speaker C: Question of the day.
[00:03:12] Speaker B: And so here's the question of the day. I. I've had this thought rolling around in my head for a while now, and I just haven't had the discipline to sit down and make it happen. But if you could write a book.
[00:03:22] Speaker C: Yes.
[00:03:23] Speaker B: And it would be a number one seller. Bestseller. Right. What book would it be or the title of the book, and what would it be about? So, Bill, why don't you go first?
[00:03:31] Speaker C: You're throwing me a softball right now. I am. I'm writing a book right now called Breaking Concrete, and it's the. It's how to break passivity in yourself and passivity, and call other men out of their own passivity. So very tangible steps that guys need to take because we have a lot of guys who are lonely, like, we're finding, and they need men to call them out and come alive. Yeah.
[00:03:50] Speaker B: Love it. Love it.
[00:03:50] Speaker C: What about you, man?
[00:03:52] Speaker B: For me, the working title is the Dirty Little Book about Church Planting and the implications it has on the larger Church.
[00:03:59] Speaker C: So I don't know if that's gonna be a big thing at all. I don't know. That's really important.
[00:04:02] Speaker B: So if you don't know. I'm a church planter here in the DFW area and I'm currently working on the fourth church plant and the. As they say, I know a few things because I've seen a few things and I am by no means an expert, but I do think there's some things that church plants have to engage in that they forget as the organization ages. That would be good to re. Embrace. And so I think that'd be a good helpful book so that we'll see.
[00:04:27] Speaker C: You're kind of like, I'm not an expert, but I play one on Sunday mornings.
[00:04:30] Speaker B: I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express. I did say, because I smoked a cigar and my wife wouldn't let me in the house.
[00:04:36] Speaker C: There you go. That's it. That's it. Kyle, what about you, Kyle?
[00:04:40] Speaker A: I'm not a pastor or an author, so.
[00:04:44] Speaker B: Good. I'm not.
Yeah, I would probably.
[00:04:48] Speaker C: Sometimes this feels like you're a glorified babysitter over here. That's what it feels like. But anyways, you're doing great.
[00:04:53] Speaker A: I would do some kind of a book on technology, Android, AI kind of thing that.
That just comes to my mind.
[00:05:04] Speaker B: That's.
[00:05:04] Speaker C: I would love to read that book.
[00:05:06] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:05:06] Speaker A: I don't know.
[00:05:07] Speaker B: I'm not. I'm not an author.
[00:05:08] Speaker C: I mean, I don't think AI has got a real big grasp on society, but I may be intrigued to read it. So.
[00:05:12] Speaker B: And it's all going to be great.
[00:05:14] Speaker C: That's going to be. It's all going to be good.
[00:05:15] Speaker B: That we learned from movies in the 80s and 90s. AI is just going to be amazing for us. So.
[00:05:21] Speaker C: John Connor, save us.
[00:05:23] Speaker B: Anyways, Bill, why don't you. Introd Circus.
[00:05:25] Speaker C: Yeah. We are super excited to have Jim Burns from Homeward back on with us this week. We are so excited to have you on, Jim. It's not just the coffee. I just get giddy. We're super excited to have you on, brother. So what about you? Question of the day? Yeah.
[00:05:39] Speaker B: As a man who's written many books, many of them bestsellers, what book are you currently working on in the back of your brain that you're like, man, this is the next step that God's calling me to write about.
[00:05:50] Speaker A: First of all, I've got to say you guys are the most fun people I know. I just want to sometime come and
[00:05:55] Speaker C: can we get an applause for that. Can we get an applause for that? That's amazing. I'm so happy.
[00:06:00] Speaker A: As long as I don't have to smoke a cigar with you guys. Okay? And you can't blow that smoke in my face.
[00:06:05] Speaker C: We still love you dearly with all that's in us, Jim.
[00:06:08] Speaker A: You are all. You know, both of you are amazing. And then Kyle, I never met Kyle. And, you know, he was going to write a nerd book, so I'm kind of a nerd. So I like nerd books. I want to. I want to read his nerd book
[00:06:18] Speaker C: when he writes it. We will send it to you for free. I'll pay for it, and you can just send it for free.
[00:06:22] Speaker A: So I would write. It's funny because I would. I'm thinking of. I'm right now in the process of working through a marriage book. But what I'd really like to do. I don't know that I'll ever do it. I'd love to write a novel, and I'd like to call it, you know, Mickey Mouse Goes to Church, because I think there's, for one thing, Walt Disney. I grew up in Anaheim, California, so I grew up at Disney. I mean, honestly, right on the corner was where we lived. And there's all kinds of amazing thoughts about what goes on at Disney. Disney that you could relate it to church. And I have a very good friend who actually started a church with Disney employees. And really, it's gone. It's really gone, you know, pretty great. And so I would write it, but I would write it as a novel. What people don't know about me, even close, you know, friends and associates here, is that I actually always have a novel in the back of my, you know, mind. Writing. I'm not writing, but reading a novel, right? I'm a better writer because I read novels. I think that's a great thing to do. So that's kind of my relaxation. Kathy and I don't spend a whole lot of time watching TV at all. And.
[00:07:24] Speaker B: Good answer.
[00:07:25] Speaker A: Anyway, so we're better. We're better at novels. So, I mean, we're better at reading novels and things like that.
[00:07:30] Speaker B: Is there. Is there. Is there a novel or series that you just have fallen in love with? If you're like, man, just read this novel because it's fantastic from beginning to end.
[00:07:39] Speaker A: Yeah, well, you know what I. I read.
I mean, a lot of them are secular. They're not the gross, you know, terrible secular. But, yeah, So I love John Grisham.
He has a new Book coming out. I know the date. I'll buy it on the day, something that it comes out. Also, what's really cool is on September 29th. Right. Well, probably after this, plays the Shack, which I loved, that Christian novel. Okay, okay, Christian novel guy. Because I don't know that I, you know, so many of them are just, you know, romance novels or whatever. But the Shack, he has a second book coming out and it looks really good. And I had interviewed him when he came out with the Shack, and it was just a brilliant. We didn't talk about the Shack, the novel. We talked about his life and how he got started. So I'm anxious to read that book. Coming up real soon, I'm taking it to Hawaii.
Go to Hawaii.
[00:08:30] Speaker C: I've got a random. Wait, you're going to Hawaii?
[00:08:33] Speaker A: Yeah, our whole family is. I speak. I'm speaking for a week in Kauai. Somebody has to do it. And then I know everybody in Maui,
[00:08:39] Speaker B: so sacrifice for the.
[00:08:40] Speaker C: Glad you're picking up that cross, you know. Yeah, I would not want that one.
[00:08:44] Speaker B: No, it's
[email protected] if you're a church looking for some men's ministry.
[00:08:49] Speaker C: If you need a pinch, pinch, pinch hitter for Jim, give me a call, you know.
No, but. Okay, random question. Jim, this is totally off topic. Have you read Theo of Golden?
[00:08:59] Speaker A: Maybe one of the best book I've read in the last few years.
[00:09:03] Speaker C: I just go for it.
[00:09:05] Speaker A: I love it. I'd call it a Christian book, you know.
[00:09:07] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, I told. I just told Travis. I said I literally finished it two days ago. And I'm like. I'm wiping my tears. I'm like, what in the world? It's incredible.
[00:09:16] Speaker A: So Tom Hanks is gonna play Theo in the movie, and I think, perfect Theo.
[00:09:23] Speaker C: Oh, I can't wait. Although, you know, what's. You know, that's the thing I can't stand about books, though. Every movie ruins the book.
[00:09:28] Speaker A: Yeah, kind of.
[00:09:29] Speaker C: And I. But I mean, I'll still watch it, but I mean, it's just. It's so good.
[00:09:32] Speaker A: Yeah, that was kind of true. In fact, Kathy really wanted to go see a movie. And I was reading the book right then, and I said, no, I have to finish the book. Because if I. If I won't finish the book if I see the movie.
[00:09:42] Speaker B: Yeah, correct.
[00:09:43] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah.
[00:09:43] Speaker A: And the people won't look the same. And, you know, all that so very. Ever so often a movie outdoes a book, but boy, it's. Books are great.
[00:09:52] Speaker C: Very hard there. Oh, man, I'm so excited about today's talk and topic. And Jim, I. I do believe it's heavy on people's hearts.
[00:09:59] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:10:00] Speaker C: You know, it's how to deal with your kids when you don't agree with what they're doing. And so I'd love you to just share a little bit about because share a little bit about who you are for those who haven't heard. And we will put Jim's other podcast right here that you can listen to as well. But also, Jim, share a little bit about yourself and then kind of jump into that because I'd love them to hear what you do. And.
[00:10:18] Speaker A: Well, I'm the president of Homeward Homewards, the large provider of parenting seminars in the US and we do. We have great podcast homework with Jim Burns. We do courses. This last year we did 20,252 people went through our courses. So I'm pretty excited about that.
Books are in 20 languages, you know, so there's a lot of things going on. I've been doing this for a long time. I'm an old guy. And so anyway, my passion is trying to help families succeed.
My big passion right now is exactly what you guys are wanting to talk about. You know, I wrote a book a number of years ago called Doing life with your adult children. Keep your mouth shut.
[00:10:53] Speaker C: Great book.
[00:10:55] Speaker A: And I never dreamed that after that book came out and it is still on the Amazon bestseller list, people would write me and talk about six pages in the book, and the six pages were on when your kid violates values and strays from faith. And so I ended up writing another book, when your adult child strays, Trading heartache for hope. And so that's what your question is, is that's. It's when a parent talks to me, and they'll talk to me this week, I'm actually going to be in Dallas. They'll talk to me this week, and they'll say they'll talk to me about their child who's walked away from faith or has moved in with a boyfriend or girlfriend or, you know, smoking pot or smoking cigars.
Wow.
[00:11:34] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Delve into that one really quick.
[00:11:37] Speaker A: But. But anyway, the point is, they'll talk to me, and they do it with shame. And their hurt cuts deep.
And I just feel for them because they, a lot of times put it on themselves.
One of the things I say to them is, you know, good parents have kids who make poor choices, and we've got to rise above that as best we can. So one of the things I tell People is you've got to stay in their story as much as you want to. You know, you're mad at them, you're frustrated with them, maybe they're even doing the no contact, you know, estrangement thing with you. But stay in their story because their stories change.
[00:12:12] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:12:12] Speaker A: You've got to be a safe person. So you've got to stay within the story and be safe so you can't tell them how wrong they are and how right you are. And that's the only topic of the day because that's going to only push them farther away.
[00:12:23] Speaker B: Right. So follow up question on that.
I love that. Stay in their story. What are two or three mistakes that you see parents. Well intended parents make that they're hoping will do good but is actually doing more harm?
[00:12:38] Speaker A: Well, some people aren't going to like what I'm going to say, but it's when they kind of preach at them. So even, you know, I talk to a mom and she goes every day, you know, I send a verse to my daughter who says she's an atheist and she doesn't want me to send these verses, but I do it anyway because I think God's going to use this scripture. And I said, have you ever thought about saying, I accept what you want. I, I love you so much. And if that's what you want right now, you know, that's okay because the daughter had said, now I'm not going to bring my kids over.
[00:13:07] Speaker B: Right.
[00:13:08] Speaker A: Because, you know, I don't want them to hear your preaching. And so I, I mean, and so that's sad to me because I love scripture. I love that, you know, people will send me, Somebody will send me. Bill, you've done this a few times where you've, you know, you've given me a, you know, just a, A cheer, you know, during a time when Kathy was going through some physical things. And I really appreciate it. People send me scriptures. I read it every time. But the point being, if your daughter told you not to, don't do that. And, and don't think that, you know, God's going to use it in a great way. Now. Sometimes he does, but not usually. So I think you got to back off and let, and you be the adult in the room. And the adult in the room sometimes bites your, bites your tongue and kind of keeps your mouth shut while you wait for them to make some of those positive changes that they can one day.
[00:13:56] Speaker B: I think it's so true. And I think that's why the brilliance of the prodigal son. Like, we love the redemptive moment of the prodigal son. But I think the brilliance of the prodigal son was the dad who let the son go and just said, if you want the world, have at it. But he never lost hope and he never lost that, that deep longing and probably praying for that son, even though he didn't, because he knew.
All I do and I, when I pursue this in an aggressive way is I build taller walls and thicker, you know, thicker walls. And that's, that's the opposite.
[00:14:26] Speaker A: I mean, it's a perfect illustration, Travis, because honestly, the dad, he, he knew the son. Where the son probably even was. The dad was waiting for him. The dad saw him coming, waiting. You know, he was, he was, he was the loving father through this whole thing. And by being the loving father, he didn't intervene when you want to. Gosh, you want to. And there's times, you know, if, if you've got a son or a daughter who's an adult and they're addicts or they're, you know, there, there's abuse going on or things like that, obviously you got to at least try to get them some help. But you know, you're going to take a hit on it, but you, you still have to do it. This dad in that story brilliantly waited for the son.
And you know, there's another part to that story too, if I can go on with it.
[00:15:11] Speaker C: Yeah, go for it.
[00:15:12] Speaker A: The elder, the elder son is mad. I mean, he's ticked because he's like, hey, the son who took your money and squandered it. You know, I've been loyal to you and I've done all this work. You've never put on a party for me.
And, and he looked at the dad, looked at him and said, well, the son of mine was lost and now he's found. He said, but all that I have is yours. So in terms, sometimes we have to have tough love. Tough love doesn't mean being angry. Tough love means allowing the consequences of their poor choices to take place, because that's how they're going to learn. I mean, if you have a five year old, they learn by experience. If you have a 15 year old, they learned by experience. If you have a 35 year old, they learn by experience. So the dad didn't change the deal. The kid wasn't getting his in his older brother's inheritance.
That was the deal. So actually he showed love, but he also showed a tougher love. Meaning, yeah, we're gonna feed this kid he's our. He's the son. He's back. But he's not going to get the money that, you know, I'm gonna give you.
[00:16:07] Speaker C: He's not gonna make what you got. Wow. That's about that.
[00:16:10] Speaker A: But it's a.
[00:16:11] Speaker B: It's a.
[00:16:11] Speaker A: It's a really good statement about how you deal with adult children who have strayed. Meaning, okay, they're gonna. As hard as it is, we're gonna have to go, oh, wow. We gotta allow these consequences. And sometimes that, you know, when adult children have tougher consequences than little kids, you know.
[00:16:27] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:16:27] Speaker A: Hearing somebody. That's wrong. Getting somebody pregnant, they're playing with addiction issues.
Walking from their faith that they, you know, loved in, you know, middle school and high school or whatever. And now they're gone. So it's tough for parents real time.
[00:16:41] Speaker C: So it sounds like, chew your tongue, seek the Lord and wait. But what's. What's the next step, you think, after that?
[00:16:48] Speaker A: Well, besides staying in the story, I think you need to build your own, what I call circle of support.
So, you know, a lot of people don't have that. Men. You guys work with men. And 12 and a half percent. This came out with Pew at Pew Foundation. 12 and a half percent of men say they don't have one friend.
[00:17:02] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:17:02] Speaker A: Yes. And so they don't have their, you know, their support system in place. And so I think what we do is, if we're going to have to work, walk through some tougher times with our kids because they're violating, value, straying from faith, whatever there is, whatever they're doing, we have to make sure that we have a circle of support.
Most people don't feel that. And so to me, a circle of support means, do you have mentors? You know, who are your mentors? Do you have peer support?
Pure influence. I call it replenishing relationships. I've been in a small group for 25 years. These guys are my wingman. They are my. My main men. Iron sharpens iron. And we didn't start that. We. We started bantering like we, you know, like we do. But then we got serious one day when Tom said, I'm having trouble with my marriage. And we all kind of jumped in. And today we hold each other accountable in a bigger way. You know, do you have a church that's backing you up? Do you have other family members now? Again, I was speaking in Austin a while back, and I spoke on Complicated Families, and I.
It's a mega church there. You guys would know the church probably. And I said, how many of you do not have complicated families? No one raised their hand in Greek service. And the pastor, his name is Randy Phillips. He's just awesome.
[00:18:09] Speaker C: He's Phillips, Craig and Dean, right?
[00:18:12] Speaker A: Yeah. And he's. He's one of my treasured friends. And. And he said, my wife didn't even raise her hand.
[00:18:18] Speaker C: Wow. Well, that's fun.
[00:18:19] Speaker A: Meaning we all have complicated families, but is there a family member who can kind of, you know, you can draw closer? I have a brother who actually isn't a Christian, and he's one of the greatest supports in my life, and he played for the Chicago White Sox, and he lives in Malibu. He actually lost his home in the fight last fire last year in Malibu.
[00:18:36] Speaker C: Oh, wow. Yeah.
[00:18:37] Speaker A: But he's just. He's a great guy, and he's a guy that. That I spend time with, and I still am believing he's gonna, you know, come to the Lord. He's in his 80s now, 82 years old, but he's. He's softening, and it's kind of a cool thing, but he's a wonderful man. And so he's even a mentor in a replenishing relationship, kind of out of my family system, because he does family, extended family, especially, better than I do.
He's just so, you know, so caring for everybody. And he tells me, you know, so. And so his birthday is this week. And I'm like, oh, I better get him a card. You know, like, yeah, you know, so family.
And I kind of passed up the church. But, you know, I really believe that the church is a place for support for us. And a lot of times, it's the first place if you go, I don't have any support going on. I don't have a circle of support. Then go to the church and, you know, go to coffee with one person. If that doesn't work, go to coffee with another person. You'll finally find somebody that, you know, you can be, you know, closer to and share that stuff. And so you're not.
You're not alone. And isolation is not a good thing. When your kids are going in a bad place, isolation isn't a good thing, period.
[00:19:43] Speaker B: Yeah. You know, it's so funny. Jim is. Bill and I just recorded a podcast that probably came out right before this that deals all with simple steps to build your brotherhood so that you don't have to go through life alone. And so what you're talking about is right on. It's what we're seeing and experiencing, and it just takes one guy being Willing to make the first step to. To grab a group of guys and then let life kind of forge that. That. Those relationships the way that life will naturally forge it.
[00:20:09] Speaker C: Well, it's funny you say exactly.
[00:20:10] Speaker A: And with guys, they do it interesting. You know, I saw Tom. I give him a big hug, and I go, hey, I love you, buddy. And he punches me in the arm. And then my arm is all hurting because he was. He was like. He overdid.
[00:20:22] Speaker B: Yes. Yeah.
[00:20:23] Speaker A: So it's like, dude, don't. Don't do that. Another guy. I'm going through a little bit of radiation in my lower part, so the pelvic area. Right. So I got a. I got a text yesterday from one of the guys in my small group, and he goes, hey, I'm praying for your pee pee, and I love you. If there's anything I can do to help you.
[00:20:40] Speaker C: And I've got.
[00:20:40] Speaker A: Who does that? Well, guys who.
[00:20:42] Speaker B: Guys do that through life. Yes.
[00:20:44] Speaker A: If I. If I showed that to my wife, she'd go, he's gross. I thought it was hilarious. And. And he said he was praying for my pee pees. I'm like, jesus, I've never had anybody tell me they prayed for my pee pee.
[00:20:55] Speaker C: Just. Just don't lay hands on me, okay? That's all I'm saying.
That's all I'm saying.
[00:20:59] Speaker B: No oil anointing needed.
[00:21:01] Speaker C: But I love that. I love that constant theme, you know? So we're doing an independent study right now, and we're finding that about. We've interviewed about 125 guys all over the country, and we're finding that about three and a half out of 10 would say in the church that they have someone in their corner.
[00:21:15] Speaker A: Wow.
[00:21:15] Speaker C: And so it blows me away. It saddens my heart when I hear that. But I love that you're saying it, because I feel like it's not just so that we grow and become more like. Like, stronger disciples, which is a huge thing, but it's so that we have that broken moment and we're, like, hurting. It's more for that. It's more for when those moments of proposed hopelessness.
[00:21:34] Speaker A: Right, Right. You know, I'm gonna do a. When I'm done with you guys, I'm actually gonna. I have to be gone. I'm gonna do a refreshing your marriage conference, which Homer does, so I can't be at this memorial service. But this guy. I'd been a small group with him years ago, before my 25 years. And one day I was complaining about my. My schedule out of control. And he goes, well, who's in charge of your schedule? And I said, well.
He goes, well, what is wrong with you? I mean, what's wrong with your self image? Why can't you say no to certain things?
You know, what, what's, what's wrong? He wasn't doing it. Judgmental. And, you know, I never have forgotten. I'm actually going to share that at the, at the memorial service.
But what, what, when you have someone in your court. He was in my corner.
[00:22:18] Speaker B: Yep.
[00:22:19] Speaker A: And, and, you know, it was the, you know, breakfast that we had together and the coffees that we had together, spontaneous moments that we had together that really made a difference. And so, yeah, we, and men are horrible at this. You, you just talked about it. I mean, in the church, we don't have those people. Yeah, they're there, but we've got to, we've got to jump into those things and give them time.
One time I was going through a time where I didn't have men around me when we first got married, and Kathy said, well, why don't you spend time with John? And I, I made the answer instead of waiting for John, who was a mentor type guy in my life. I go, well, he's too busy for me. And so she goes, well, why don't you see if he'll have lunch with you sometime? And so I said, hey, do you want to do lunch? We have lunch. And then he goes, hey, why don't we do this every Wednesday?
And we literally had lunch every Wednesday for three years. And he moved on, moved to. He was a pastor, moved on to other places and we would meet periodically and we just pick up because we had done the three years. Well, that took time, that took energy. You know, I had to drive to the meeting, you know, whatever it was. We laughed a lot, we prayed, we.
We cried a bit because of things that were going on in life. We, you know, it was a great thing. I mean, it wasn't a group. It was just this one guy. But you can find those people. They're out there.
[00:23:30] Speaker B: Well, and I think that goes back to the original question of how do we navigate life when our kids are making value decisions different than what we would have for them or life decisions that are different. And what I hear you saying, Jim, and I think it's so spot on, is like, focus on what you can control.
And what you can control is the community you have around you. What you can control is your own walk with the Lord.
[00:23:52] Speaker C: Right.
[00:23:52] Speaker B: What you can control is continuing to not Grow weary and praying for. Because the Spirit is the Spirit, and he does miraculous things in ways and in times that we cannot predict.
And I hear that. So what other advice would you give as you're dealing with kids that maybe be straying from some of the things that you value?
[00:24:14] Speaker A: Yeah, well, sometimes you just have to. What I call reframe your mindset. By the way, I loved what you just said.
You know, it brought a scripture to my mind.
Paul saying to Timothy, discipline yourself for the purpose of godliness. You know, discipline. There's. There's two different words for discipline in the Bible, and the one that he used was the word for, like, exercise. Guys, get this. You know, work out. You know, work out. So discipline means, you know, sometimes we just have to roll up our sleeves and discipline ourselves for godliness. And that sometimes means, you know, hanging out with. With the guys. But I want to go to. Yeah, reframe your mindset is something I'm really thinking about a lot because there's some things you just can't do anything about. What. What happened? I'll give you a quick illustration.
Justin, not his real name, but Justin chose to live with a girl, and the parents were going crazy. And then they married because she got pregnant and they didn't like her. So, you know, it's just that mess of a thing. They stayed in the mess. God's okay with messes.
And so I worked through a process with them. They sat here in my office, and I said, well, that's the fact. Justin chose to marry somebody because of the pregnancy, and she's difficult, but what else is true? And the mom goes, well, they have a beautiful baby girl. And the baby girl, I'm going to be the grandmother forever. And she smiled. In the midst of being awfully mad at Justin and the difficult woman, et cetera, I said, well, what else is true? They didn't say anything for a while. And they go, well, they don't go to church, but they ask our daughter and her husband, who are really strong Christians, to be the godparents, because the difficult woman has a background that. Where the godparents are part of the deal if they ever went to church, right? So they ask them. And I said, well, that's cool. And they go, no, it's really cool. And our daughter's really taking it seriously and, you know, all the right things. And then I said, well, one more. Let's try one more. What else is true? And she goes, you know, never thought about it, but Justin took me out to lunch for mother's day, and he gave me the most beautiful card. And he had missed several mother's days and very few cards. So what happened was their, their, their circumstance didn't change, but their attitude did change. And that makes a difference. And so we have to make sure we're reframing our mindset because it's not all terrible. It's not going to be the world's worst thing. And frankly, we've got to live within a structure of life that says, you know what? I disagree with you on these very important issues, but I also love you. And so we do that with people all the time. You know, at work or at other places. We can do that with our children. It's just, it's harder because we have a, you know, thoughts on our children that they, you know, will, you know, they need to come around and we need to tell them why they need to come around every time we see.
That doesn't work.
[00:26:56] Speaker B: No, it does not.
[00:26:57] Speaker C: I love what you said. It made me think about Philippians two or so what, whatever. Things are good. Honestly, good report. Think on these things. And I, I remember someone telling me, and maybe you could speak into this, that you can't hold both negative and positive thoughts in your mind at the same time. Can only hold one or the other. Yeah. And so then your whole mind gets consumed with the good. And I think you're right because even as a parents of wayward children, there's still so much to be grateful for. For, like, there is hope for the future. There is. They are not gone forever.
[00:27:25] Speaker B: Right.
[00:27:25] Speaker C: There is still hope. And I love that, like, you go back to the prodigal son and like, dad was like, someday he's gonna come back. I love that. I love that. So.
[00:27:34] Speaker A: Right. No, I, And I like that. I agree. I mean, sometimes you have with you do. If you have your positive thoughts, then, you know, there's, and you're worried stuff. You're, you're putting it to the back burner because it's hard to just release it, especially when a kid is really.
[00:27:48] Speaker B: True, true, true.
[00:27:49] Speaker A: But what you see is it's, it's possible to live with both of those going on and, you know, whoever. If you feed the positive, then you're going to do better. If you feed the negative, then you're going to do worse. So what you've got to do is find ways to feed the more positive. And sometimes the positive is, wow, they answered my text.
Because they hadn't been answering the text.
[00:28:10] Speaker C: Right.
[00:28:11] Speaker A: So, you know, take the wins.
[00:28:13] Speaker B: When you get them. Take the wins when you get them.
[00:28:15] Speaker A: No, exactly. And it's. It's just not over. You're playing, you're running a marathon. You're not doing a sprint. So, you know, parents have to. Have to get past the fact that right now it's really, really tough, but it has a possibility of getting better.
[00:28:29] Speaker B: Well, and I think it goes back to. And it goes back to your opening statement about how many parents, when their kids do make decisions because they're autonomous and God has given us free will. Praise God for that. When they make those decisions, we think it's something we did wrong.
[00:28:42] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:28:43] Speaker B: And it's. I know my wife, we have one of our kids and we've maintained that relationship. And I love her absolutely dearly, and we have a great relationship. But when they were going through a really hard season in junior high and high school, my wife just incessantly beat herself up on it because she thought it was something she did do or something didn't do. And I think we just have to be gracious with ourselves and realize that life is hard and the world has loud voices and, you know, Satan is real and Satan is pursuing our kids. And so he may get the minor victory, but let's make sure that we pray about the ultimate victory, you know, and not lose hope in that and not beat ourselves up on it. Be gracious with yourself, parents.
[00:29:22] Speaker A: Travis.
[00:29:23] Speaker C: Be gracious with yourself.
[00:29:24] Speaker A: Great word. Because there are thousands of moms and some dads who are doing just that. You know, when our kids started saying, well, kind of in college, they bumped a little bit. We were fortunate. Our kids are doing good. But when they bumped, you know, the first thing out of Kathy's mouth was, we shouldn't have taken that trip. We should have let them go on that missions trip. We shouldn't have. And she kept saying, shouldn't. We shouldn't have done this. What if, you know, we should have parade more at the dinner table? I mean, we were already doing like devos and stuff when other people weren't.
[00:29:56] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:29:57] Speaker A: But they got bored. They got bored. And, you know, unfortunately they were. This daughter I'm thinking about, she was hanging out with a bunch of pastors kids at a Christian college.
[00:30:05] Speaker B: And that was, don't trust those pastor kids, man.
[00:30:10] Speaker A: So, you know, then I. I was. So I was blaming those pastors kids and I went, wait, she has a free will. She can choose and she's choosing to follow their lead. You know, I can't be blaming those kids. I need to be thinking about Our daughter. But, you know, they, you know, she comes back, you know, she comes back around. Comes back around, different. Doesn't agree with everything that we, you know, like, we have rules at our house, that we don't talk politics at Thanksgiving and Christmas or whenever everybody's together.
[00:30:34] Speaker C: Because why are those big issues or.
[00:30:35] Speaker B: No, those dividing issues? I don't know what you're talking about.
[00:30:39] Speaker A: Hey, here's an interesting statement. So I just read this, and actually it's in Time magazine. I didn't even know they still had the magazine, but I saw it online.
But the number one reason why adult children go to no Contact right now is over politics.
[00:30:54] Speaker B: Wow.
[00:30:55] Speaker A: And. And the second one is over gender identity. So those are when they go to. When they just go, okay, I'm breaking up. I was in Texas not too long ago, and there were this. There was this good old guy. He had the cool, you know, hat that you guys all wear and. Oh, yeah, same hat. But it, you know, it was, I think had taken a bite out of the bill or something. And he said, I'm. I'm thinking about taking my son out of my living trust. I could tell the guy had some money because I'm taking him out of the living trust because he doesn't vote for Trump. And I went, oh, wow. So the son walks in, he's at the same church, and he looks just like his dad. He also has a bite out of his bill. And he goes, is my dad ragging on me? Because he's talking about Trump. All he talks about is Trump. And I. And I said, well, it sounds like you guys have a disagreement on politics, you know. And he said, well, I'm thinking about just not having any contact with my dad, just cutting him off because, you know, he's ridiculous. And maybe the dad was, I don't know, maybe the son is idiot. I don't know. And then all of a sudden, little boy, and he was a cute little kid, and he has the same hat, which is. Cracked me up. He walks in and I said, is this the. Your grandson? And he kind of smiled. He said, yeah, it's my grandson. I said, so let me get this straight. Are you guys thinking about not being in relationship over a political situation where when I was his age, I didn't even know who probably who the president was? Maybe I did. I don't know. And I said, and frankly, you know, whatever your political persuasion is, two years from now, it's going to be different. And are you willing to break the family over that? And interestingly enough, the dad said yes. The son backed off a bit. And I said to the dad, do you want to not have a relationship with your grandson here? That mellowed him. But I wish I could say I talked them into it and they walked out with arms around each other, but, you know, it. It amazed me that even these Christian guys at this church were willing to, you know, break relationship over politics, which I don't worth as what you guys are doing or what I'm doing in terms of, you know, ministry.
[00:32:57] Speaker C: You know, it's. It's crazy because I'm pretty certain that Donald Trump's going to be at his funeral. You know what I'm saying? Probably not his grandkids.
You're probably focused. He's probably making the right choice right there anyways.
[00:33:07] Speaker B: And I do think, like, wow, like, it's easy to focus on the things that divide us, and as parents, man, we just gotta find what, what unites us. The thing. The memories and the moments that we cherish and that we can share together and just focus on that and let the other stuff go away. Because there's nothing you. There's no pressure you can put on that relationship that's gonna get them to change their mind. In fact, you're just gonna get them to become more defensive and just push them away. You're not pushing them in, you're pushing them away.
[00:33:34] Speaker A: No, you're so. And you're pushing away. When I said, and I said this earlier, you know, when you're saying here, you're. You're so wrong, and let me tell you how wrong you are and how right I am, that pushes them away.
[00:33:43] Speaker B: It pushes everyone away.
[00:33:44] Speaker A: You know, there. There is something that I think families can do when they're. In that case. They need to have some fun together.
[00:33:50] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:33:51] Speaker A: You know, I wrote it in my PhD. It was on traits of a healthy family. And one of the traits was fun and play.
And I find that when you have fun together as a family, when you play together as a family, all of a sudden some of those arguments and stuff just kind of goes away and, you know, you have fun. It builds tradition, it builds relationships, it builds, you know, there was. It was. Something was broken. Now it's being mended. And I'm not trying to say that you, you know, you, you change the way you think or you, you know, you settle for, you know, just not ever talking about values or things like that, but sometimes a family just needs to have, you know, some fun. That's what, you know, that. Yeah, my Kids when we would always get together when they were younger and we would say, what was the highlight of the year? They never said. It was sitting at the table having an argument over in their homework done. I don't know why, but they said when we went to Disneyland, when we. Dad, when you played catch with us in the back. And I'm like, whoa, whoa, whoa. You know, to me, that was nothing. But to them, that was a big deal. Camp, things like that.
[00:34:51] Speaker B: Well, and I would. I would.
Jim, first off, thank you so much for taking time out to be on our part podcast. I cannot thank you enough for your investment and your study and your research to know these things and to be able to speak into these things. And I think one of the things that was the breakthrough.
[00:35:04] Speaker A: I need to be outside, though, by the way. I just interrupted.
[00:35:07] Speaker C: No, I need to be outside with us.
[00:35:09] Speaker B: Upwind, upwind.
[00:35:13] Speaker C: But.
[00:35:13] Speaker B: But, like, the breakthrough for my daughter and I was I started to ask honest, inquisitive questions just about her, like, and just, like, I showed an interest in her, even though her answers I didn't agree with or whatever. And just by asking questions and genuinely being concerned or interested, inquisitive about whatever she's going through or whatever she's dealing with or whatever she's doing, it reformed that relationship, which was divisive at the time.
And I think there's something beautiful in that.
[00:35:43] Speaker A: So, so good. And, Travis, what you did was you moved from your agenda to her agenda. Now, her agenda might have been she wanted to talk about snowboarding or she wanted to talk about, you know, the latest something, whatever it is, that's not your interest, but it was her interest.
So when you do that, you listen to her. And listening is the language of love. People. People respond to listening, and that's what we've got to do.
[00:36:04] Speaker B: I love it.
[00:36:04] Speaker C: Well, Jim, as we finish up, we're. We have a call to action. We want to. Want to kind of connect with these families who are going, how do I do this? What would you say is a big call to action for these. For these parents today?
[00:36:16] Speaker A: Stay in their story. I said it right. I started it that way, and I close it that way. Stay in their story. They.
The bottom line when your kids are deconstructing or when they're falling away from faith or whatever it might be, is they want to still know, do you still love me?
[00:36:34] Speaker C: Yep.
[00:36:34] Speaker A: And so you've got to show that I loved. I'll close with this quote.
It's by Madeline Engel, and I've Been using it lately in my own life. We do not draw people to Christ by loudly and discrediting what they believe, by telling them how wrong they are and how right we are, but by showing them a light that is so lovely that they, with all their hearts, will want to know the source of it. I think that's what we do with our kids, man.
[00:36:58] Speaker B: Mic drop.
[00:36:59] Speaker C: That was awesome.
[00:37:01] Speaker B: Fantastic. I love it.
[00:37:02] Speaker C: I love it. Guys, there is hope after this moment in your story with your children, and I love it. Jim, thank you so much for being on today. Any final thoughts? Any. Any. Anything else you'd like to share?
[00:37:13] Speaker A: No, you guys are the best. I loved when I. When I got the request, I was like, yeah, let's do this.
[00:37:20] Speaker C: I love it. I was like, hey, Jim, can you be on? He's like, yeah. I'm like, he can be on again, Travis. He can be on again.
I love it.
[00:37:28] Speaker B: We did burn that bridge.
[00:37:29] Speaker A: I know.
[00:37:30] Speaker C: Goofy's coming back on.
If you didn't know that one, check out the other podcast. So that's. Jim, this is such a blessing. I. We. Sorry. You're stuck with us now forever. So we'll see you on next week. And anyways, I'm just kidding. No, we have super blood, guys. Please check out Homeward Ministries. We'll put the link for. For the new book that you're. That you as well as doing life with your adult children. That was a powerful book for me. I think I put it down four or five times. I was like, I had to just process this.
[00:38:00] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:38:01] Speaker C: But man, we know that there is hope and I'm glad that you have given in answers to some of that through the power of the gospel and Jesus Christ. And so, Jim, thank you so much for your willingness. If you can stay on for just a second afterwards. But, man, we're praying for you. Praying for your wife. And man, we are excited to have you on. Travis, final thoughts about anything.
[00:38:17] Speaker B: Don't lose hope. And the important thing is their story.
[00:38:21] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:38:21] Speaker B: Focus on their story.
[00:38:24] Speaker C: I love it. Guys, thank you so much for checking us out today. Make sure you share this like this comment. We'd love to connect with you guys and tell us what book you guys are writing as well. And make sure you check out our Wake Up Guide and Seven Day Reset. And, man, we are. We hope you guys stay connected to us. Have a great week.
[00:38:41] Speaker B: God bless you all.
Thanks for listening to the no Legacy podcast.
[00:38:45] Speaker C: We'd love to hear from you.
[00:38:47] Speaker B: So email us your questions or comments to infonolegacy.org.
