The Battle That Rages Within

[00:00:01] Speaker A: You're listening to the Known Legacy Podcast, brought to you by Known Legacy Ministries. For more information, go to knownlegacy.org now here's your hosts, Bill and Travis. [00:00:14] Speaker B: Good morning, everybody. I hope you're doing well out there in YouTube land and podcast land. [00:00:22] Speaker A: Have you ever started something and realized you should have started it different? [00:00:25] Speaker B: Yes. [00:00:26] Speaker A: Okay, good, good. [00:00:26] Speaker B: Absolutely. [00:00:27] Speaker A: Anyways, Bill, it's good to have you here, man. [00:00:29] Speaker B: It's good to have you here, man. [00:00:30] Speaker A: Kyle, how you doing? [00:00:31] Speaker B: Glad you showed up. [00:00:32] Speaker C: Good, thank you. [00:00:33] Speaker A: Fantastic. It's always good you guys are tagging into the Unknown Legacy podcast. We're excited that you're here. If you're so glad you're here, checking us out on Facebook, YouTube, Instagram, wherever, man, we'd love it if you could give us a review, give us a share, give us a like if that's something that you want to do. And yeah, thank you so much. It's a podcast that we hope to help guys and gals wake up, gear up, and come alive. [00:00:53] Speaker B: Yes. [00:00:54] Speaker A: Who they are in Jesus Christ. And yeah, just. It's good stuff. Just came off our men's retreat, so we got. We're a little giddy. [00:01:01] Speaker B: Little giddy. It's like that Camp high. You come back from camp high and it's pretty awesome. Great weekend, but we're glad you're here. Listen, we know that God has something big for you today. So if you're listening and you're doing three other things like doom scrolling while you're listening, can you not put us in that corner at the top? Can you put us at the center? This is really important for you. God's got something big for you. [00:01:20] Speaker A: Yes, absolutely. [00:01:20] Speaker B: Even if it's listening to two or three idiots and going, hey, I can be more spiritual than them. You're like, you can. The hope is there. So we're glad you're here today. [00:01:29] Speaker A: It's not nearly as hard as I thought it would be. [00:01:30] Speaker B: This is way easier. [00:01:31] Speaker A: If these guys can do it, these. [00:01:33] Speaker B: Guys can do it. [00:01:33] Speaker A: Surely, if Jesus has a story for them, surely my story matters. It's not bad. [00:01:38] Speaker B: Dude, I like your hat. It looks like it's new and crisp. [00:01:40] Speaker A: Thanks. I will. I will tell you, it is a new crisp hat and it's for the Argyle Eagles. [00:01:45] Speaker B: Okay. [00:01:45] Speaker A: And Argyle is a school that my boys go to. And, well, my boy, I only got one in high school anymore. [00:01:50] Speaker B: They used to though, right? [00:01:51] Speaker A: They were all there and they played Friday night football. And I'll tell you something, that's the question today Actually, question of the day. [00:01:56] Speaker B: Question of the day. [00:02:00] Speaker A: I want to do that one more time. Question today. Question of the day is we're all transplants, I believe. Kyle, were you okay? So you're not native. We heard the legend of Friday Night Lights in Texas. [00:02:17] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:02:17] Speaker A: You know, we've all seen the movie about, you know, Midland and Odessa and what those programs were like in the 90s and all the cheating and all. Everything else. Right. [00:02:26] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:02:27] Speaker A: What was your experience and everything you. [00:02:29] Speaker B: Think through all the cheating and everything. [00:02:32] Speaker A: What was your experience when all of a sudden you. You, like, woke up to the reality, like, oh, that's what Friday Night Lights is all about. Like, what was that experience for you? [00:02:43] Speaker B: What was it for you? Kyle, I got to go first. Okay, I'll let you go. Age before beauty. I don't know about that. I struggled on that one. [00:02:54] Speaker C: Well, I'm a little older. [00:02:56] Speaker B: Pearls before swine. [00:02:57] Speaker C: I moved here in 76, 77. And I played football and. And I went to Grapevine Middle and I played eighth grade in Grapevine Middle School. But then. But I played all since I was, you know, four or five, whatever it was. [00:03:17] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:03:17] Speaker C: But when I went to high school and played, that's when it sort of hit me. It was different here. [00:03:22] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:03:23] Speaker C: Because 2A days in Texas heat, you know, Gatorade wasn't invented yet. [00:03:29] Speaker A: Nope. Water from a hose, man. [00:03:30] Speaker C: It was water from a hose. And. And those two A days were just brutal. And then, you know, when the season starts and you have freshman teams and the stadiums are almost full. [00:03:40] Speaker A: Yes. [00:03:41] Speaker C: That's pretty cool. [00:03:42] Speaker A: Yes. Yes. I would say, for me, it was so living in Argyle or Allen, Texas, when we first kind of moved to North Texas, that's when it started to make sense to me. And it's primarily because they built a stadium that sat, I think, 12,000. [00:03:56] Speaker B: That's a lot of power. [00:03:57] Speaker A: 12, 13,000 people, I think is what it for a high school football game. [00:04:00] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:04:01] Speaker A: And. And then not only that, they have season tickets. [00:04:04] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. [00:04:05] Speaker A: And season tickets that like. Like in. In. And I would think, okay, season tickets. That's for, like, the parents that have kids that are playing in the band or kids. And. And you sit around these people. Season ticket. You're like, your kids are. Are only in elementary school. [00:04:19] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:04:19] Speaker A: And you're like, why'd you get season tickets? Well, one day my kid's gonna be in the band, or one day my. And so I wanted to get season tickets this year so that we could hold them. Did it. And it's like. And you roll into the parking lot on a Friday night and there's tailgating. [00:04:30] Speaker C: 18,000. [00:04:31] Speaker A: 18,000, 18,000. And there's tailgating. [00:04:34] Speaker B: I felt like Joe Rogan right there. He just looked it up right there. He was like. We're like, hey, look up. [00:04:39] Speaker A: That's always good. [00:04:40] Speaker C: Emmett Smith and another. I can't remember the other cowboy player that were there the opening night. [00:04:46] Speaker A: Oh, yeah. [00:04:47] Speaker B: Emmett was there a while ago and when we. When Gabe was in the band. [00:04:50] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:04:50] Speaker B: And we're all, like, looking around for him, like, fangirling, but obviously we didn't see him. [00:04:54] Speaker A: But son played a Stadium for 18,000. [00:04:56] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:04:56] Speaker A: You know, and they're not. That's not the only one. There's multiple McKinney. McKinney has a. [00:05:02] Speaker B: You know, all of those $70 million. [00:05:04] Speaker A: And you just sit there and. And. And the other thing that was shocking to me is majority of people will stay for the whole game. [00:05:10] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:05:10] Speaker A: Like, they won't leave at halftime. Like. Like, it just floored me. Floored me. What about you, Bill? So. [00:05:16] Speaker B: So I. My kid goes to Alan, and she's in the color. My daughter's in, like, the color guard. [00:05:21] Speaker A: And so guarding that color. [00:05:22] Speaker B: So we do actually have front row season tickets from an amazing family that we know from our church. And. And we just buy them every year from them. But. So that's it. But that wasn't the first thing. So I moved to Midland, Texas, from upstate New York, remember? Yeah. And which I'm like, you know, that's. I moved from the Adirondack mountains, lakes, river, streams to the desert, where I literally watched my dog run away for two weeks. Was the flattest land in the world. [00:05:46] Speaker A: But you could see. Still see its tail. [00:05:48] Speaker B: Exactly. He's good. We got him. So get some food. And so. But, man, we. Right before we left New York, we're like, let's check this out. So we watched Friday Night Lights because it came out in like, 04 or something like that or whatever. And we moved in 05. So we watched it just to check it out. And, man, as I. As we watched it, we're like, what are we getting at? This can't be real. Like, it can't be real. [00:06:11] Speaker A: Right? [00:06:11] Speaker B: And I'm sitting there going, okay, so we get there, and that stadium is huge. [00:06:16] Speaker A: Huge. [00:06:17] Speaker B: Like, when we first got there in 05, there were still stores that, like, closed down. [00:06:21] Speaker A: Yep. [00:06:21] Speaker B: To go to football. And I'm like, this is a high school football. But now, all these years later, I'm like, I love high school. Football. [00:06:28] Speaker D: Yeah. [00:06:29] Speaker B: It's like the best. [00:06:29] Speaker A: It's so pure. [00:06:31] Speaker B: It feels pure. [00:06:32] Speaker A: I don't know if it is. [00:06:32] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. There's obviously, I mean there's no corruption anywhere and so. But I mean, I mean, but, but you go to this game and like the walk over with the band and how like I have a. Like I never would have thought that I'd be a guy that holds a cowbell because I'm the 12th man. That when it's the third, when it's the third down you're like dang. Ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding. [00:06:55] Speaker A: And you're like. [00:06:56] Speaker B: So I'm like losing my voice. [00:06:57] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:06:58] Speaker B: And then Friday night, that was really good game. [00:07:00] Speaker A: Well, doesn't Alan also have fireworks? [00:07:02] Speaker B: No, not at the end of this. Maybe in like playoffs I think. But they. We don't do them every, every week. [00:07:07] Speaker A: Again, high school football with like bro drone shows and. [00:07:11] Speaker B: Yeah. Oh, it's crier works. [00:07:12] Speaker A: It's crazy. [00:07:13] Speaker B: Just, just, just a screen. So. So I, you know, I played high school football for one year. One year. So. Cuz I, my, I fought my parents to play high school football and so senior years ago I'm playing and I think the most people that came to one of our games were 60 people. [00:07:27] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:07:28] Speaker B: And like. And there was one like little bench that could fill all of them and I mean most of them stood along the fence. [00:07:35] Speaker A: Oh yeah. Oh yeah. [00:07:36] Speaker B: But man, to come here and see that was absolutely incredible. [00:07:40] Speaker A: It's amazing. It's amazing. And so with that intro, I do want to bring on our guest today. His name is Brian McKenna and he's the antithesis of Friday Night Lights football because he currently lives in Arcadia Township, Northern Michigan. It's a beautiful little town of about 300 people, I think. Is that right, Brian? [00:08:01] Speaker D: Yeah, small town, Northern Michigan. We're straight across from Green Bay, Wisconsin. And I actually was. [00:08:07] Speaker A: What's the big about Green Bay? [00:08:09] Speaker B: I have no, no, no bidder. What whatsoever right now about Green Bay. [00:08:12] Speaker A: Says the Dallas Cowboy fans. [00:08:14] Speaker D: Well, I'm actually coming from Illinois, so that's where I moved so recently into Arcadia, Michigan about six months ago, but came from Illinois. So I am a big Bears fan. I know the timing's a little off just to come on off this past weekend, so don't want to alienate anybody. But we don't always have a lot to cheer for, but we do this week. [00:08:33] Speaker A: Hey, take it while you can get it because God knows the Bears need something to chair for. I just, I feel for you guys. [00:08:39] Speaker B: Mike Ditka. Or a hurricane. Wait a minute. The name of the hurricane. It's Ditka. [00:08:46] Speaker A: The Bears. [00:08:47] Speaker B: Duh. Bears. [00:08:47] Speaker A: The Bears. [00:08:48] Speaker B: The Bear. Anyway, sorry. [00:08:49] Speaker A: So, McKenna, you know, what was your experience with high school and football in Illinois and. Yeah, and the legends that you've heard about Friday Night Lights, if there are any. [00:08:59] Speaker D: Yeah. You know, we do in fact have football in Illinois and actually Friday Night Lights as well. So believe it or not, maybe not as big a scale and the production piece of it, but it is a community event, and so it is big all throughout Chicagoland area, which is where I'm from. And so that's the part I most enjoyed is it's a community event. [00:09:21] Speaker A: Love. [00:09:21] Speaker B: It's nice. [00:09:22] Speaker A: Love it. So I'm excited to have Brian here. We've known. We. I've known Brian for looks. [00:09:27] Speaker B: How many years? [00:09:28] Speaker A: 35 years? 35, 36. [00:09:30] Speaker B: So just to give you a little insight. [00:09:32] Speaker A: No, we don't need to go there. [00:09:33] Speaker B: We don't need to go. Listen, I need to show your fallibility. You have very few faults, and I need to show them. [00:09:39] Speaker A: I hate you. [00:09:39] Speaker B: So he goes, hey, so Brian, we've been friends like 15 years. And Brian's like, yeah, like 35. [00:09:44] Speaker D: Not even. [00:09:45] Speaker B: I was like, literally, the Internet wasn't even invented when you guys began your friendship. [00:09:48] Speaker A: That's. Well, okay. We're Facebook friends for 15 years. [00:09:50] Speaker B: All right, all right, it's official now. [00:09:53] Speaker A: Now, anyways, Brian is a trained counselor, and he is fantastic at what he does. And we've been able to partner together at Camp Arcadia in developing some Bible studies and leading some high school kids and deepening their faith and discipleship with Jesus Christ and. And who he's created them to be. And. And I really wanted to have him on because I think he. Because he has a chance to sit there and listen to guys and gals and families process some of the hard stuff of life and how they've gotten into the. Some of the. The issues that they've. They've gotten themselves into. I would love to hear kind of his take on Man Just. Restoration, Forgiveness, Trust, how to renew broken when you're going through a difficult season. What are some things with that? So, Brian, without further ado, why don't you share with us a little bit of your story of how you got into counseling. What is the experience like now today versus what it used to be? And what are some of the big things that you're experiencing that maybe you were never prepared for when you're going through college and Getting your degree and your master's and all that. [00:10:52] Speaker D: Yeah. Thanks, Travis. I kind of stumbled into it. So I went into college not knowing exactly what I wanted to do. Met up with the right people, you find a professor that you really connect with. And I always knew I liked helping out people. So it became this natural fit. I kind of got into psychology and then I got into social work. So I'm actually a clinical social worker, meaning that I deal with a lot of mental health. That's the clinical side. I also like to call myself a change agent. And so that's what I like to do, is really help people. And what I specialize in and what I do a lot of is really three main areas. First, and the most I do is anxiety. It's been on the rise for many years. Anger emotional management is another one, as well as addictions. And so when I work with men, I'm seeing a whole host of issues. And currently some of the trends that I'm seeing I wanted to share with both of you guys so that we can kind of please digest into that. And so one of the things that I see a lot is what I call emotional repression. And what happens is that leads to things like anxiety, anger, addictions, numbness. And so really trying to figure out, like, all right, what do you do with those. Those emotions? And guys are really good at stuffing it, really good at. Really good at pushing it down, which works short term, but it doesn't work long term. It eventually catches up with all the pressures and stresses in life. That's a big one. Another one is really just the. The fear of failure. When you really kind of unpack it. There is a lot of pressure. Career, finances, relationships, and that whole idea of, like, all right, I have to really succeed. I really have to be driven, which is great, but sometimes there's a cost to that as well. [00:12:40] Speaker A: Right. [00:12:41] Speaker D: Another big one is relationship strains. And so difficulty just kind of expressing their needs to their partner, to others. And then lastly, another big theme that I see is loneliness. And just especially around middle aged men, just not having those deep connections. And I think that's what a lot of the church can offer is being able to have authentic, genuine connections within that. Because the bottom line is like, many men just don't know how to say, I'm not okay. [00:13:13] Speaker A: Yes. [00:13:14] Speaker D: Show up tired or angry, or they just say, I'm fine. And under that is usually a lot of pain and confusion. [00:13:24] Speaker A: So I love those four things, by the way, and I feel like they're all intertwined in some ways. And it feels like that inability to identify the emotional state that you're going through. Because we had a guy on a few weeks ago, and he talked about a book, and I forgot the name of the book. I ordered it, and I haven't read it yet, and it was. [00:13:45] Speaker B: Talked about it. Yeah. [00:13:46] Speaker A: And he really talked about a book that helped him be able to identify, like, oh, that's what I'm feeling. Right. Because that's so difficult. So how would you. If a guy's coming in and the emotional. There's emotional roadblocks, or there's emotional hurdles that he's really struggling with, what would be some of the things that you would encourage him to kind of process through, to be able to identify it and then once identifying it, how to address it in healthy ways. That's good. [00:14:12] Speaker D: Yeah. Yeah. Great. Great question, Travis. I'm a bit more unconventional and kind of how I approach things. For me, I would. I would capture it in this way that masculinity isn't the enemy. However, rigidity is. And so what I mean by that or what I do is I really, in my approach in counseling is really offer a reframing. A reframing of what masculinity can be when it's healthy, and it can be expansive, and it can be not rigid, and it could, you know, you can use male affirming language. So, for example, when. When a guy comes in to see me, I typically don't say, let's. Let's talk about your feelings, because one. [00:14:54] Speaker B: Oh, that doesn't work. [00:14:56] Speaker D: That's like speaking French to them. They're like, what, do you hold his. [00:15:00] Speaker B: Hand while you do it? Or no. [00:15:01] Speaker D: Right. Get a grunt or, you know, something back or whatever. So. So I reframe it this way. I'll say something to the effect of what's been weighing on you lately that's good. Or like, what's been taking up space in your head or what's been keeping you up at night? Like, those questions get at the same thing in terms of the feeling piece of it. Or like, instead of saying, you know, I need you to be vulnerable, instead, I'll say, like, it takes a lot of guts to talk about that, you know, or what you're doing right now takes real strength. So to me, it's reframing and it's talking about healthy. Masculinity includes strength, responsibility, leadership. But there's also room for softness. You know, there's also room to ask for help. There's also room to be seen. So I Guess a takeaway for the listeners is like, men need permission to feel without failing, or to speak without being silenced, or to heal without being ashamed. But you have to find the right context. So I think what I like to do is really reframe what masculinity is, Brian. [00:16:10] Speaker A: I think that's. That that is huge and fantastic. And I think that if there's any wives or ladies that are listening right now, I would encourage you to go back to that two minutes in the, in the podcast and write down those questions. Because I think, yeah, the way you ask those questions, just in me and myself, I'm like, oh, yeah, I could answer those. But if you were to ask me, like, how are you feeling today? I'm like, like, I'm gonna punch you. But I know exactly what's been keeping me up and I know what's going. [00:16:36] Speaker B: On in your head. [00:16:36] Speaker A: I know what's been heavy on my mind and everything. So I think that's a brilliant, a brilliant tool to make that happen. So as you get guys to finally start to open up and share and identify some of those heavinesses, what is the next steps that you would encourage them to engage in a healthy process of healing moving forward? [00:16:56] Speaker D: Yeah, I think it's being open minded. And what I mean by the open minded piece is being able to take that feedback. Sometimes it's hard for us to hear feedback. To us, sometimes it's unsolicited and we don't want to hear that piece. And so, you know, my, my walk, you know, my journey with Jesus really taught me a few things. And one of those is, you know, the biggest victories in my life haven't been loud ones. They haven't been out in your face. They've been more internal and, and less reacting. So I kind of teach them. Like, you're navigating pressure, you're navigating pain, and how do you get purpose in your life? And so less reacting, more listening, less pride, more presence, like, that's Jesus, you know, changing how we show up in quiet ways is what I try to teach them. And so, you know, in my mid-40s, I started struggling with anxiety, which is what I was helping others with for a long time. And anxiety, I call it the doubting disorder because it gets you to doubt yourself or question. And so I've been helping people so many times. It's, it's the uncertainty. And uncertainty triggers anxiety. And what do we have? We have a lot of uncertainty these days. And so, you know, within these, these anxious moments when I Felt like I was like failing as a man or a professional. It's in those places that Jesus didn't leave me or, or, or shame me, but instead he studied me and he reminded me my identity isn't my performance. [00:18:30] Speaker A: Yes. [00:18:30] Speaker D: And it is, you know, who he says I am. And so identity. I do a lot of identity work. [00:18:35] Speaker B: You know, it's interesting. I went to a concert this last week with a band called Strings and Heart Young, like Gen Z, kind of man love Jesus. But he acknowledged his struggle with anxiety. And man, everybody in the crowd under 20 was like, I get it. [00:18:54] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:18:54] Speaker B: And I feel like you're right. It's the new pandemic. It's that. And so I would say that there is, you know, I would love to touch on that some more for a couple things. I've got two questions for you about that. One of them is I heard this statistic in the church and speaking to this that literally like 99% of men in the church feel alone. Like they feel like they don't have somebody, like they're doing life. So I would love to get your thoughts on that, on that statistic. Because every time I say it to someone, they're like, yep, I agree with that. [00:19:23] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:19:23] Speaker B: I mean, so, and again, I mean statistics, you know, 87% of statistics are made up on the spot. I heard it was 75 anyways, but, but, but I've not seen it proved wrong so far. [00:19:33] Speaker A: Right. [00:19:34] Speaker B: That these guys are like, I feel alone. But then also what would you. Okay, I've got. Let's just say I'm a person that has like massive anxiety. How would you walk them through having the courage to find an armor bearer or to find someone to talk about with that? Like, what would you, what would be your, your encouragement to those people? [00:19:56] Speaker D: Yeah, anxiety. What, what it gets you to do is focus on yourself because you have to manage what's going on internally. And so sometimes you can come across as self centered or aloof or not attuned or not connected because you're just trying to manage your, your anxiety. And so when you talk about how high of anxiety and how that runs, you're right. In terms of the loneliness piece. Robert Putnam wrote a book many, many years ago, Bowling Alone, and he had a term in there called crowded loneliness. And what he's saying is you can be lonely and still have a lot of people around you because sometimes we have a narrow view of loneliness thinking like, okay, there's not people like I'm living alone or things like that. And so no, you can have a lot of people, but not having those meaningful connections, you know. And how do you get those connections? Well, shared experiences or common interest and just putting yourself out there. When you have anxiety, it's hard. It's hard to do that piece of it because you're caught up in trying to manage it within, within yourself. Now, anxiety is a continuum, like we all have it. Sometimes people come to me and say, hey, I need you to take away my anxiety. Well, that wouldn't be good either because if you didn't have any low level of anxiety, you wouldn't study for that test or show up on time or fair, you know, all those things. And so you need to have it, but it just want to make sure that it's a manageable piece so it never, never goes away, but not to the point where it kind of consumes you and becomes more part of your identity of who you are as a person. So I help people kind of externalize that anxiety, take it outside themselves more. So that something that visits you then making it that kind of your identity piece. [00:21:36] Speaker A: I love that. And I think one of the secret sauces, and I'd love to hear your kind of thoughts on how it's shifted over time is that loneliness piece, Is that something that guys have always struggled with, or is that something unique to our culture where we're hyper connected, but we are surface connected, not deeply connected with anyone. And you know, I think back to my dad and, you know, he's part of that old generation where he worked hard, he family hard, and he also figured out ways to play hard. He would have the poker nights with his buddies during the summertime, he'd do the Thursday night golfing outing with his buddies. And he had those moments to get away and have those shared experiences that you were just talking about. What have you noticed over the length of time that you've been in this or even further back? And is this new, the loneliness that guys are dealing with, or is this something that's always been there? We just got to figure out how to address that. [00:22:31] Speaker D: It's always been there, you know, it's changed and it looks different, you know, over time. I do believe that it has increased in terms of the anxiety and reaching at younger ages. So I think that's a bit new, you know, so like we've always had that piece, but then people get anxious, which then is connected to this whole loneliness piece, you know, so if you start getting anxious a lot of times, then you don't want to be out There with people. Right. So there's a thing called social anxiety where you're like, I'd rather just not be in a group. So then opportunities become a little less. But, you know, we connect differently. We connect over, you know, online, we connect, you know, through social media. There's different ways that people are connecting, which allows some good connections. But also then I think you can still feel isolated in that way as well. And so you don't have all the face to face, face type connections too. [00:23:22] Speaker B: So I think I, you know, I feel like we're going down this rabbit trail, which I love, but. But man, when my kids were younger, we wanted them to go outside and be a part of community. We're like, just go outside. And then they would go outside. They're like, there's nobody out here. And so what would you say to the parent who's like, my kid has anxiety. What are some good tools that you could do that would help them kind of fight against this feeling of loneliness and anxiety, even from a parent, from a parental side to say, here's some, here's some tangible things that you can take away to go, I'm going to do this with my kid to at least engage the conversation and fight back against their feeling of loneliness and anxiety. [00:23:57] Speaker A: Yeah, great. [00:23:58] Speaker D: Yeah. One of the ways that you really counter anxiety is exposure to whatever it may be. So if you have a fear or an anxiety about something, but that's tricky, right? So you don't want to have too much of that exposure because then it can lead to something more extreme or a panic attack. However, you know, real growth happens when you get outside your comfort zone, you know, so you have to just get outside that sweet spot. Now you can't get up too much because then you're distressed. You're on the other end of the continuum, which is not good too. So you have to find a way to know how you can nudge, push and kind of get your kids to try things like that. And sometimes that may mean walking along with them or finding ways, but sometimes we just accept things of like, all right, they just have this, they just have this particular condition and saying, okay, they just have to work, figure out a way to deal with it. But there's ways to kind of, kind of overcome that piece. But it's out, it's getting outside your comfort zone. Which is exactly what, when you have anxieties you don't want to do, or if you're feeling isolated or feeling lonely or shy and not an introvert, that's the Last thing you want to do. So it's a tricky thing is. Is what it is. But I would, you know, I would help parents help their kids get outside their comfort zone in just little tiny steps. I call them kind of micro steps. What's. Little things you can do. And string those together which then will produce. Produce change. [00:25:19] Speaker A: Love it. Love it. You know, as a believer of Christ, we all engage in this thing called the church. And the church is a gift that God has given to us to navigate this world as saved brothers of Christ until he returns or until we get to experience him in paradise when we. We breathe our last breath. What are some things that the church, as you're kind of looking at it, that it does, that is not helping? And what are some things that the church can do that would be helpful that maybe you've seen in action or you're like, man, if the church could just figure this out, it would make a huge difference in the hearts and the lives of fathers, of dads, and of men in general, regardless of age. [00:26:01] Speaker D: Yeah, okay, that's good. Let's solve the world problems right here. You're on. [00:26:09] Speaker B: Someone has to. Someone has to. It's your job. [00:26:12] Speaker D: Yeah. Yeah. Well, I'll give you this. I'll give you kind of some of my secret sauce of what I do. And so I use three main kind of life questions is what I do and they'll, they'll be what kind of guides my, my therapy. And I'll give you, I'll give you the three. And the first one is I help people kind of figure out who am I. So it's that kind of, that search for, for identity and clutch. [00:26:36] Speaker A: Clutch. [00:26:37] Speaker D: What defines me at my core? You know, am I the sum of my experiences and my choices and my thoughts or there. Or there is or more, you know, in terms of Psalm 139, you know, I'm. I'm fearfully and wonderfully made. And so it's that whole idea, like, we have to figure out what is, what is your identity and trying to understand that it kind of goes beyond, you know, your roles or your labels or your expectations or your career. It's, it's all that piece. So that's the first one. The second one is why am I here? And so just kind of figuring out like, that search for, for purpose and kind of an understanding, like, all right, what, what, what's the meaning. What's the meaning here of life? So I was kind of kidding about that. But that's the core of this of like, but it's also like, why am I here at this time in my life? You know, what's going on? Whether it's I'm going through some pain and suffering or things are going well and so. And then the whole sense of responsibility, like ambition, what, what's the reason I'm here? What should I be doing at this time? And then, and then lastly what I'll say is like, where, where am I going? Right? And you can answer that at all different levels in terms of micro to, to macro, and looking ahead of wondering where your, your path or where you're leading to. What's my trajectory in terms of, of, of life and beyond this here on earth as well. And so the question kind of points forward in time, in the, in the future, but like, beyond time, what's, what's, what's beyond that as well. So you can talk about in their everyday life, but also talking about it in that piece of it. So I think the church really can help use those kind of guiding questions of like, all right, who am I? Why am I here? And, and where am I going? To really kind of build that up within our, our church members. [00:28:25] Speaker A: Dude, that is, that is the definition of our little language of wake up, gear up and come alive. Wake up to who you are. Gear up with like, you know, why am I here? And then come alive and go and do what God's uniquely gifted you called you to do and engage. And it may be a small thing or it may be a huge thing. It may be caring for your family and your kids. It may be planting an orphanage in the Caribbean someplace, you know, but to have that, man, I love that. And I feel like we're just scratching the surface of these big issues that are all over the place, but very rarely are people really talking about and processing through. So I appreciate your conversation immensely, Brian. If someone wants to get ahold of you or get ahold of a counselor, let's say, to kind of start to process through this stuff. Because, you know, my analogy that I love to use is like, Tiger woods was at the time one of the best golfers that's ever lived, and he still had a coach. And why did he have a coach? Because in the midst of his backswing, he had blind spots that things were happening. He didn't know why it was happening. He didn't know how to correct it. So you need someone outside of you to look into that and say, hey, have you thought about this? Have you prostitutioned that? And I think that's what counselors, when they're good. Counselors are so good. So what advice would you give to finding a counselor? To sitting at the feet of someone who can help navigate some of these bigger issues that maybe guys are struggling with and. Yeah, and how can they get ahold of you if that's something that you're open to? [00:29:51] Speaker D: Yeah, it's all about relationships. A good friend and pastor of mine, Bill Yonker, has a quote that says the best thing in the world is good relationships. And then he goes on to say that the worst thing in the world is, is bad relationships. So with anything in life, you have to find somebody you feel connected to. And so sometimes it's like finding a used car. You got to kick the tires, so to speak, or metaphorically here, don't be kicking your counselor. But you know, it's the idea of like, all right, like, is this a good fit? Like, I'm, I'm not for everyone, but, you know, you can find a counselor out there because there's so many of us that are out there as well. And so you can get a hold me, I guess. Do you guys. I don't know what the best way is. If they reach out to you, you guys have my number. And then that way we can. To get them connected locally or just there's resources out there to make sure there's a good fit. Unless. Unless you guys have a better suggestion on that. [00:30:42] Speaker A: I think that's infoownlegacy.org infoomelegacy.org you reach out to us, we'll put you in touch with Mr. Brian McKenna. Absolutely. What's final question thoughts on Christian based counseling and helping guys navigate these big issues and these questions, Is it, is it important to look for a Christian or is that, you know, where does that fit in the hierarchy of finding a guy or a gal to help you navigate some of this stuff? [00:31:09] Speaker B: That's a good question. [00:31:11] Speaker D: Yeah, it depends on the person. Right. So if that's an important piece of you, then absolutely, you know, on that end of it. So it's not the end all be all, but I think it's going to be a crucial piece. As a Christian, you know, myself, that's who I would look for on that end. And so looking for a Christian counselor helps you kind of incorporate the whole picture, the holistic value approach with this as well. And you know, for me, that's what I'm able to do is to kind of help tell people you are not what you build, break or battle. You're. You're the one that's Loved by Jesus. And so knowing that message again and Again, you know, Second Corinthians 12, 9, you know, says, my grace is sufficient for you, and my power is made perfect in weakness. And so understanding that peace and knowing that, you know, that's. That you're loved. [00:32:01] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:32:02] Speaker A: All those three Bs. Again, what you battle, what you break. [00:32:06] Speaker D: Yeah. You are not what you build, break or battle. You are the one that Jesus loves. [00:32:13] Speaker A: That's fantastic. That's the mic drop right there. [00:32:15] Speaker B: That is. That's good. I've enjoyed this conversation. I do feel like confronting this because, man, there. There is this feeling of, at least from the older generation that it was weak. [00:32:25] Speaker A: Right. [00:32:26] Speaker B: To talk about this. And there's the new generation that, like, this is who I am. [00:32:29] Speaker A: Right. [00:32:30] Speaker B: So we've got to figure out the pendulum swing in between the two of my identity is my anxiety. Like, you just like. Like you. Like, you addressed clearly. Like, it's not your identity, but so many have. And then the other side, that's like, nope, nope, I'm good. It's like. It's like Monty Python. No, it's just a flesh wound. But I've cut your leg off. No, I'll be fine. And so I think we've got to find that meat point. But I do believe that having a. A brotherhood of people that are in your corner, that are. That are the right. The right band of brothers. If I could use that kind of language to be a part of this, to help this healing happen. Because, guys, you're valuable. Like the guys listening to this. You guys are so valuable. And I'm excited because, man, to get that healing. Imagine if we got that healing we needed and shared the hope of Jesus with people because he is truly the only hope in the world. [00:33:13] Speaker A: Yeah. The impact it would have on your marriage, the impact it would have on being a dad or a granddad, regardless of where you are in that huge, huge. So, yeah, great conversation today, man. [00:33:22] Speaker B: Good stuff, man. Brian, thank you so much, man. You know, as we finish up, we have our fast five questions. There you go. See, he liked the little. [00:33:34] Speaker A: That's our high production value. [00:33:35] Speaker B: I know. Did you like that car? I need you. But, Brian. Okay, so question number one. Who do you most admire and why? [00:33:45] Speaker D: A lot of people. But I guess I'm going to go with the quick answer here. I would say bono love YouTube music. I'm a big music guy. Like his activism and just the. The music behind it. So that's my quick, quick answer. [00:33:58] Speaker B: Nice, nice, nice. [00:34:00] Speaker A: Fantastic. I don't think we've had a Bono. [00:34:02] Speaker B: We haven't had a Bono answer. [00:34:03] Speaker A: I love that. Fantastic. [00:34:04] Speaker D: I'm Irish, too, so you got to go with the Irishman. [00:34:06] Speaker A: Absolutely. So, McKenna, what's your favorite album by them? [00:34:12] Speaker D: Joshua Tree. You know, there's a lot of ones, but just in terms of the mid-80s, just kind of that time of my life in college, all the rest of that. So. [00:34:20] Speaker B: Yeah, the only one. The only one I couldn't stand is the one that itunes downloaded automatically to my phone. [00:34:24] Speaker A: Yes. [00:34:25] Speaker B: I was like, I'm not listening to this. Yes. That was no good. Oh, it's crazy. Anyway, other than that, great. Great. [00:34:30] Speaker A: Yeah. The B side, I. I would put forth the B side of Joshua Tree is better than the A side. Even though A side got all the play, I think the B side and what. What they're doing musically in the B side. [00:34:40] Speaker B: For all of those listening who are under 21, the B side was the other side of the tape or the other side of the record. So just so you know, there is no more B sides. [00:34:48] Speaker A: There was a time in our lives where we had to eject the tape and flip it over to hear the rest of the album. [00:34:55] Speaker B: Quite frankly, when they first met these two is when the B sides actually existed. So fun fact. I know. I love you so much. So where would you. Where would you like to go on a vacation with your family? [00:35:07] Speaker D: So I want to say Tennessee, and that's a new one for me because several people have been told me about Pigeon Forge. And so I've had two or three people talk about they've gone to the way back hotel. It's this retro hotel where they have Elvis pool parties. Now. I'm not even a big Elvis guy. My. My dad loved Elvis. Elvis pool party in Dollywood and all the rest of it. I got to go with Tennessee. Pigeon Forge. [00:35:33] Speaker A: That sounds like a fantastic road trip for Known Legacy. [00:35:35] Speaker B: That sounds awesome. We need to do that. [00:35:38] Speaker A: Absolutely. We need to do. [00:35:39] Speaker B: Thank you. Thank you very much for letting us know about that. [00:35:41] Speaker A: That was a horrible impersonation. [00:35:42] Speaker B: I know. It was. Okay. [00:35:44] Speaker A: Rumor has it he's still alive, by the way. I don't know. [00:35:46] Speaker B: He is. The aliens took him or something. I know that. It's okay. That's a whole nother podcast, Travis. [00:35:52] Speaker A: Sorry. [00:35:53] Speaker B: Number three. What are you currently reading? The Bible or another book? [00:35:57] Speaker D: Yeah, of course, the Bible. In terms of devotions. On top of that, I read a lot related to my field, and a good one that came out this past year is the book called Talk and it's by a Harvard professor named Allison Wood Brooks, and she teaches a class on. This is one of the most popular classes at Harvard in the communications department and MBA maybe. And so it's really just about the science of conversation, the art of being ourselves. And so very relevant. It's. It's great. Recommend. [00:36:29] Speaker B: Talk, Talk, Talk, Talk. Okay. [00:36:32] Speaker A: I like that. It's an easy one to remember. [00:36:33] Speaker B: Yes, it is. Very good. Very good. Number four, what's a goal you have for this year? [00:36:39] Speaker D: Well, remember I said I was unconventional? So my goal is to be less driven. Oh, yeah. To be more mid is. Is what it is. And actually extend grace more often. So I am just kind of stepping back. I moved to Northern Michigan and just kind of a reset and, you know, been driven a lot throughout my life, and I just want to be less driven. Doesn't mean I don't want to, you know, be driven at all, but just less driven. Dial it back a little bit. Go from the amps, you know, at 11, to maybe, you know, nine. [00:37:11] Speaker B: Even though it goes to 11. [00:37:14] Speaker A: Okay. We won't go. We won't go into Spinal Tap. [00:37:16] Speaker B: Listen, we are movie. We are a movie quote. We should just do one with just full movie quotes at some point. [00:37:21] Speaker A: I like it. I like it. [00:37:23] Speaker B: We can make it happen. Okay, number five, what's the most impactful piece of advice you've ever been given? [00:37:31] Speaker D: Give thanks. Be. Be grateful. That's the most impactful. This is the day the Lord has made. Let us rejoice and be glad in it. Psalm 118. [00:37:41] Speaker B: That's awesome. That's awesome, dude. This has been a good conversation. Thank you so much, Brian, for being on. I know you had to squeeze us in. Thank you. Actually, this was just therapy for me and Travis really is what it was. So I appreciate you taking the hour for free and working with us. [00:37:54] Speaker D: We need a lot of help is how we do it. Remember to have to define masculinity differently. We do therapy on the air with you. [00:38:02] Speaker B: Yes. [00:38:02] Speaker A: I love it. [00:38:03] Speaker B: I love it, man. So good to have you on, man. [00:38:05] Speaker A: So good, you guys. Thank you so much for listening once again to Non Legacy Podcast. We love that you're checking us out again. Our goal is that you would wake up, gear up, and come alive, you know who you are in Christ, that you'd see that he has a reason that you're here right now, and there's a future that is still there for you. [00:38:21] Speaker B: And. Yeah. And if this has been beneficial to you, do us a favor. You're like, how can you. A lot of people ask, how can they support us? Yeah, one of the things you can do is you can. You can follow us on YouTube and share it with at least one friend. That's our goal because we know that it's making a difference and we want you to help be a change, an agent of change, just like Brian said in the very beginning for others. So thanks for listening, guys. Have a great week. [00:38:43] Speaker A: God bless. Thanks for listening to the Known Legacy podcast. We'd love to hear from you. So email us your questions or comments to info at. No Legacy C.