God Was There the Whole Time

[00:00:00] Speaker A: You're listening to the Known Legacy Podcast. [00:00:02] Speaker B: Brought to you by Known Legacy Ministries. [00:00:04] Speaker A: For more information, go to knownlegacy.org now here's your hosts, Bill and Travis. Morning, Bill. [00:00:15] Speaker C: The coffee has steam on it again. [00:00:17] Speaker A: Yes, it does. [00:00:18] Speaker C: It's a beautiful day. Don't let it get away. [00:00:22] Speaker A: Don't let it get away. My name is Travis. This is Bill over here on the other side. [00:00:25] Speaker C: Good morning, Travis. [00:00:27] Speaker A: Kyle, our producer's on the end of the table. [00:00:29] Speaker D: Hello. [00:00:30] Speaker A: And it is fall here in Texas, and so we thought we'd move outside and enjoy this beautiful weather. [00:00:35] Speaker C: It's crazy because some places are like, it's fall. It's time to go inside. [00:00:37] Speaker A: And we're like, nope, not here. [00:00:39] Speaker C: This is our season. [00:00:40] Speaker A: Yes. [00:00:40] Speaker C: Yes, it is our season. And it's so crazy because, you know, we're not from this area originally. So, like, fall is beautiful. But, like, this is finally our reprieve to go out. [00:00:48] Speaker A: I know. [00:00:49] Speaker C: And not get sunburned at 7 in the morning. [00:00:50] Speaker A: Anyways, you've stumbled onto the Known Legacy Podcast. We're glad that you're checking us out. [00:00:55] Speaker C: Welcome to our corner of the world. [00:00:57] Speaker A: Hopefully you're being blessed by this. If you can give. Give us a, like, give us a share. We're on Instagram. We're on YouTube. We're on Facebook. Infoolegacy.org if you have any questions, comments, or concerns. You can head over to the [email protected] if you want to find out about Bill and his book. Bill. And some of his speaking events coming up. And also if you want to make a donation to support this mission and ministry. We greatly appreciate it. [00:01:21] Speaker C: Yeah, we even take gold and silver. Oh, I'm just kidding. I don't really know if we take gold and silver. [00:01:26] Speaker A: I'm sure we can. We have an accountant that. [00:01:27] Speaker C: There's a way to do that. We can figure that. I'm just kidding. We're glad you guys are here. Travis, great to see you again. [00:01:32] Speaker A: I'm excited about our guest. But before we get to our guest, the question of the day. [00:01:36] Speaker C: Question of the day. Hang on a second. [00:01:40] Speaker A: We're doing this again, are we? [00:01:41] Speaker C: All right. [00:01:42] Speaker A: I love this. [00:01:43] Speaker C: Okay, let's try it again. [00:01:45] Speaker A: And the question of the day. [00:01:46] Speaker C: Question of the day. [00:01:49] Speaker A: Nice. [00:01:50] Speaker C: It's getting better. [00:01:51] Speaker A: Okay, so it's fall. Our kids here in America are back in school, you know, and they're learning. And I don't know about you and your growing up situation, but all the kids from the neighborhood went to the same school and that school, throughout the year, would have multiple fundraising opportunities because our taxes weren't funding the education the way that they needed to. So we had to supplement the educational. [00:02:14] Speaker C: Good thing. That's changed. [00:02:15] Speaker A: Right? Right. Good job, government. Good job. And. And so they had these silly, like, you know, door to door. And I remember they would sell it, like, this is a great skill that you're going to need in life to be able to go door to door for sales. And I just want to know, what was your first miserable door to door sales experience? Like, what was your go to? [00:02:37] Speaker C: Well, first thing, I love the fact that they were like, we're gonna set you up because you're not gonna make it out there. So you got to go door to door and do this. So we'll figure out. [00:02:46] Speaker A: Have you heard about encyclopedia? [00:02:48] Speaker C: Exactly. [00:02:48] Speaker A: You're gonna be a salesman and love it. [00:02:50] Speaker C: Exactly. Oh, my goodness. Okay, so I'll start now that I'm talking already, but I remember. So there was the school stuff, which were, like, the candy bars and stuff like that. But one thing that jumps out to me is I was in Boy Scouts, and you're obviously fundraisers for that. And I remember there was this giant box, and it was like, this big white box with a handle. It was all cardboard and everything. And inside this box were probably, like, 150 different little household items, like cutting boards and knives and whisks and things like that. [00:03:20] Speaker A: Wait, they're letting you walk around with, like, sharp knives? [00:03:23] Speaker C: Oh, yeah. [00:03:24] Speaker A: There's ammo, hunting rifles. There's a whole host of boy Scout stuff in there just for you. [00:03:31] Speaker C: Survival dressing kit. You know, it was random. And so then you go in there, you don't really know what you're doing because they're like. You walk in, you're like, hi, I'd like you to buy some stuff from me. And they're like. You're like, say your name. Oh, my name is Belle. And I went to Boy Scouts, and I have a box of stuff. Like, bill, you got to come up with a better. And so literally, here I am in this person's house trying to, like, sell stuff. And the problem is everyone's really nice, but there was always that, like, everyone wanted everything. Like, they wanted to look at everything. And they bought, like, the $3, like, kitchen whisk after pulling everything out. And then you're. Then you try to figure out, how did all this go back in? So by the time you're done, it's. It's half open. You kind of have it hold like, this it's like, it's, it's vomiting out the box. Oh, yeah, Yeah. I don't think I did very well. [00:04:14] Speaker A: No. And, and then they had to add the whisk to the five other whisks. They bought the five previous years from other five kids. And, and that hardest thing, like everyone in the neighborhood was trying to hawk these items. [00:04:25] Speaker C: Yes. [00:04:25] Speaker A: So you, you would go door to door and they're like, you're the fifth. [00:04:28] Speaker C: Kid to show up today. Well, and they would always do it during the school one, which was like candy bars and stuff. She's like, but I will take two candy bars. I'm like, but I need it for this. Can you buy something from here? [00:04:38] Speaker A: And if I'm, if I'm honest, this will not shock anyone who's ever seen me in person. I literally would sell a box to myself. [00:04:44] Speaker B: To myself. [00:04:45] Speaker A: And I'd be like, I sold a box. And I'd be like, wrapper hanging out in my pockets, chocolate all over my mouth. And I was miserable. Misera. Yeah, I remember I had to do the same thing. I was speaking of being sponsored by Low T. I was in a all boys choir. All right. And we had to. We were going on a trip to, I think Japan. Right. To sing. And that's cool. Yeah, it was, it was my. It's my one major international. And I was in sixth grade, so woefully underappreciated the entire experience. Right. [00:05:17] Speaker C: Oh, my gosh. [00:05:17] Speaker A: But we had. And we were selling like potato chips. So we'd go door to door with bags of potato chips. And I'm thinking, like, in today's culture, could you imagine sending your kids into a neighborhood and people inviting the kids into their house? Like, that would never. First off, no one knocks on the door in our culture anymore. [00:05:33] Speaker C: I got some popsicles in the freezer. [00:05:36] Speaker A: You want some candy? [00:05:37] Speaker B: In my white van in the back. [00:05:38] Speaker C: It's like, oh my gosh, what are we doing, man? What are we teaching? [00:05:42] Speaker A: I know. So anyways, miserable experience. I just remember sweating like a stuck pig. Just getting sunburnt trying to hawk these. You know, you could buy the bag of chips for 250 in the store and I'm selling them for $5. [00:05:54] Speaker C: I know. [00:05:54] Speaker A: And I'm like, whose idiot is going to be buying these bad boys? You know? [00:05:58] Speaker C: Goodness. [00:05:59] Speaker A: How about you? What was your fun door to door salesman experience? [00:06:03] Speaker D: So I was in the boy Scouts too. [00:06:06] Speaker C: Okay. [00:06:07] Speaker D: And we were selling these little cake things, little bricks, prepackaged and whatever. [00:06:14] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:06:15] Speaker D: And so I had eight Years old. I had a box of them from. [00:06:18] Speaker A: Rations from World War II. [00:06:20] Speaker C: Exactly. [00:06:20] Speaker D: I brought them, and I'm like, what's a crash in. [00:06:23] Speaker C: No, I'm just kidding. [00:06:24] Speaker D: I don't want to go out and do this anyway. But they probably sat there a week, and I don't remember what the dead one was. And then one day my grandmother came over, and I'm like, grandma, do you want to buy one of these? What are they? I'll buy once we open. She goes, oh, can you get more? So she ended up buying four boxes because she had this women's event coming up, and she decided she was gonna to pass that out. [00:06:49] Speaker C: Like, that's not even fair. [00:06:50] Speaker D: I know. [00:06:50] Speaker A: I think this whole scam was to get grandparents to fund education. Exactly. 90% of everything that was sold, I guarantee, was to grandparents. [00:06:59] Speaker C: Yeah, exactly. Oh, absolutely. [00:07:00] Speaker A: Like. [00:07:00] Speaker C: Like, even now, all those little, like, you know, all, like, the fundraisers, you basically just, like, go online. Okay, we just need you to give 600. About 600. So, yeah. And the grandparents. And then call your grandparents. Like, well, you've just earned $300 in the course of, like, eight minutes. [00:07:13] Speaker D: And do you remember that you had that sheet and you had to fill out? [00:07:16] Speaker A: Oh, yeah. Total. [00:07:17] Speaker C: Oh, yeah. That was the worst one line. G. Ma. [00:07:22] Speaker A: I remember I had to get extras because my first go at it was in legible. Like, I would bring it home, and my. My mom would be like, I have no clue what you wrote down. [00:07:30] Speaker C: What did you write? [00:07:31] Speaker A: I don't either. [00:07:31] Speaker C: I don't know who they are. [00:07:33] Speaker A: They were saying letters and numbers and such, and I'm just slapping it in there, hoping, you know, I think the only good thing that came out of this, like, let's be honest, we have a drug issue within our culture, and I think this was the tool used to teach people how to run drug. [00:07:47] Speaker C: Rackets door to door. [00:07:48] Speaker A: First one's free. Second one. [00:07:50] Speaker C: Second one will cost. [00:07:50] Speaker A: We'll figure out. We'll figure out a plan for you. Anyways, anyways, introduce our guest now. [00:07:55] Speaker C: Oh, yeah, I know. [00:07:56] Speaker B: That's. [00:07:57] Speaker C: We are so excited to have Jeff on. Jeff. So glad you're here. So, and Jeff is originally from Australia. Did I do that right? Did I do good? [00:08:12] Speaker B: No, no. Because I'm from England. Oh. [00:08:18] Speaker C: You landed. And I said, wow. [00:08:20] Speaker A: Well, we're looking for a new co. If anyone like to apply info at Known Legacy. You can apply. [00:08:26] Speaker C: I'm going to go study a map really quick. [00:08:29] Speaker B: Okay. In his defense, they did 22 years in England, and then 22 years in Australia. [00:08:35] Speaker A: Okay. [00:08:35] Speaker C: I feel better about myself. Okay, so you're from England. Did you have anything like that? Like, door to door sales kind of stuff over there? [00:08:42] Speaker B: Okay. So I was in the Sea Scouts. [00:08:44] Speaker A: Okay. [00:08:45] Speaker B: Which was sort of like the waterborne version of the Boy Scouts. And that's cool. Raise any money. But when I was about 8, I thought it was a good idea to get a bunch of dirt out of my back garden, put it, sieve it through this big garden sieve, put it in bags, and go around selling it as super earth to all the grandmas in the area. [00:09:04] Speaker C: No way did it work. [00:09:06] Speaker A: Dude, he's brilliant. [00:09:08] Speaker C: That's amazing. [00:09:09] Speaker A: Okay, side story real quick. Just real quick. So my son, my youngest son, who's kind of the smartest kid that we have in the family, and he's always an entrepreneur. He's always up to something. [00:09:16] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:09:17] Speaker A: We had. For Christmas, we had all these little candy canes that we had collected for Christmas. And we were. Gave them out at Christmas, Christmas Eve and stuff like that, right. And we had a whole bunch of them. So mid January, one of the moms from the neighborhood comes over and gives my wife, like, $5. She goes, what's this for? He goes, oh, it's for the candy canes that Luke's selling. And we're like, why is he selling candy canes? Well, he said he's raising money for something. And it was like 50 cents a candy cane. And it was like, those were free candy canes. Like, we were giving those away. So we got him home, had him give back all the money, and just give away the rest. And I'm like, you little turd. That's super soil right there. [00:09:55] Speaker C: That's the super soil I remember. I was. Okay, now we're gonna go off a tangent. I'm sorry. When I was younger, there was this friends of ours. We used to go over to their house to catch the bus to go to school. All that kind of stu there. Remember the movie Willow? [00:10:10] Speaker B: Willow? [00:10:10] Speaker C: Yeah. So someone. Someone, like, had taken out a box of, like, trash. And it was like 20 different Willow posters that are. That. That are on there. I had this idea that I needed to go and sell these posters for 25 cents a piece in my fourth grade. So basically, I like, I. I brought these trash posters to school. [00:10:32] Speaker A: Yes. [00:10:32] Speaker C: And was like, oh, they're people like, hey, like, what are you doing? Like, oh, I'm just selling them for 25 cents a piece. Sold them all in, like, the teacher's like, what are you doing? And I'm like, son, I'm sitting there, like, looking at all this money, going, I'm a rich man. I'd like. I'd like quarters. I bought so much milk that day. [00:10:47] Speaker A: Yes. Amazing. Yes. [00:10:49] Speaker C: Anyways, Jeff, we're totally off subject, but, man, we are so glad to have you on. Jeff, thank you for being here and enjoying our rambling. I hope he's. [00:10:57] Speaker A: Yes. [00:10:57] Speaker C: Jeff, are you still there? Jeff? Jeff, are you there, man? We are so. We are so glad to have you, man. Share some of your story. Tell us about your journey, because it's really. When I talk to Jeff, I love this story of what I heard of what he did in Australia, which is where I got all of that from. But share your story with our. With our listeners. [00:11:17] Speaker B: All right. Well, it depends where you want me to start, mate. I mean, it's all over the place. It's a bit long and winding. And I want to clarify. This is the story of an idiot, someone whose brain was so thick, God had to kick him on the head with velvet slippers for at least 15 years before he kind of got a clue. [00:11:36] Speaker A: You fit in well with this crew. Welcome to the welcome. [00:11:39] Speaker B: Right, okay, so I'll start with the fact that I was a hardcore atheist for about 25 years. When I say hardcore, I mean, I hated Christians so bad, I studied Hebrew to destroy them in arguments. [00:11:52] Speaker A: Nice. [00:11:52] Speaker B: So that'll give you a bit of a. A picture of my mindset now when it comes to the Australia stuff. I've been in the military. I've been in the British Royal Marine Commandos. And I. I thought, okay, well, you know, this is great, but I want to do something exciting, and it isn't filling a hole in my heart, you know, the old story. And so I. I moved to Australia and I. I started a personal training company, and that went really well. And that sort of got me training a lot of the celebrities that would come into the country. And then a little 1980s TV show called American Gladiators. I don't know if you remember that. [00:12:33] Speaker C: I do 100%. [00:12:34] Speaker A: That was. That was weekly watching. [00:12:38] Speaker B: Yeah, it was a big show for many years. And they started doing tryouts around the country to set up the Australian Gladiators. And it was 10,000 people trying out around the country. And because of my military training and I've been a bodybuilder for so many years, I actually became an Australian gladiator. And they called me Commando because that was what I was. I was an ex British commando. And so that sort of catapulted me into all areas of like, you know, you know, red carpets and free booze and free everything. And that sort of also moved into writing books and doing movies and meeting my wife and then her becoming popular in Australia. And between the two of us, we. We made a career. We. We started up Australia's biggest model agency. And after that, it was all sex, drugs and rock and roll. I mean, we really. I. As a good English saying, we filled. I filled my boots. And that was the beginning of the sort of eventual plummet into. Into misery. But before we get to that part, you know, so we. We were going to the big red carpet events every single night, five nights a week, sometimes. More exhausting mingling with all the, you know, the who's who in town. And at the time, it was actually a really amazing time to be doing it because Australia had just started up their movie industry full speed. And we had, in town, we had Nicole Kidman and Tom Cruise and who's the guy from Matrix? Keanu Reeves. [00:14:12] Speaker A: Yes. [00:14:12] Speaker B: And Will Ferrell. And I got to meet Atman, play pool with and hang out with all these guys. I arm wrestled Charlie Sheen and hung out with Sylvester. [00:14:21] Speaker A: Did you win? Did you win? [00:14:23] Speaker B: Of course I won. Yes. Commando. [00:14:26] Speaker C: Is that even a question? Commando. [00:14:29] Speaker B: Yeah. That was a funny day. I've got it on camera, too. It was all over the papers the next day. So I was living the life that I thought was going to give me everything. And for those of you who think, oh, if I could just get famous rich and have people, you know, girls throw themselves at me, that would make me happy, well, I'm living proof that that's true. Absolutely, that's true. For a little while. [00:14:50] Speaker C: Oh, and. [00:14:51] Speaker B: And then after a little while, it all starts to get like, you know, a little old hat and a little exhausting and the. The old spark is gone and it just becomes a job. Because I would look at it like networking. So as I said, five nights a week we'd go out and network with all of the industry types because that was what we were in. We needed to get our names out there, we get our business out there, and. And that was the best way to do it. But at the same time, it was kind of destroying me and my desire, my. My belief that hedonism and, you know, pagan attitudes and basically the Aleister Crowley lifestyle. My belief was that that was what would lead to happiness. Freedom, true freedom. You know, the truth will set you free and to thine own self be true. And, you know, this is the whole of the law and all of those wonderful hedonistic quotes that I had been reading about because I was a voracious reader of spiritual texts. Mostly because, like I said, I wanted to destroy spiritual people. For some reason, I had a big bee in my bonnet about anybody who believed in anything. To me it was the most pathetic, childish, fairy tale load of rubbish. And I believe that society was being destroyed by people with belief. [00:16:12] Speaker C: Yep. [00:16:13] Speaker B: Because the moralistic, the moralizing, all of the, all of the negative things that come along with, you know, religion. And I had seen it, I'd grown up with it and I was like, I want nothing to do with it. And so I, you know, I read the Quran, I read the Dao de Ching, I read the bag, the Gita, I read the Apocrypha Gospels, the book of Thomas, book of Mary, book of Jesus, everything. I read the Satanic Gospels, I read, you know, study Luciferianism. And I was determined to find the holes in all of these that I could literally look at people and just go, you pathetic child, you believe in fairy tales. And I am believing in truth. [00:16:56] Speaker A: Right. [00:16:56] Speaker B: But my, my truth as I saw it, the absolute passionate, all in pursuit of absolute freedom. Like anything that you wanted. Drink as much as you can, take as many drugs as you can, have as much wild, you know, parties as you can because eventually you'll get to nirvana. Who's going a little pear shaped and. Yeah, and so that's when, when, you know, a lot of, a lot of things started to fall apart, including my realization that perhaps I was on, on the wrong path. And you know, it. The very, very first time something struck me was I used to have a whole library of books, spiritual texts, like I said. And I used to occasionally pull out a book, flick to a page and just read, read a line, just, you know, for some woo woo, wisdom. And on this particular occasion, I pulled out the Bible and flipped to a page and it was Ecclesiastes. [00:17:58] Speaker A: Yes. [00:17:59] Speaker B: And if you've ever read Ecclesiastes, I'd never read it. I'd never read it. And it was like, wow, this guy had so much more than me and had experienced so much more than it would even be humanly possible to do in this day and age. And he was saying that the pursuit of that kind of thing was nothing but wind and pointless. [00:18:18] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:18:19] Speaker B: And it really shocked me and I was like, okay, so I knew a lot of millionaires, billionaires, we used to hang out on Richard Branson with Richard Branson and on his yacht and you know, a bunch of other people. And. And I thought if I could just get more. If I could just know more people, if I could just go to bigger parties, and. And eventually I had to look myself in the face and go, they aren't any happier than I am. And he's a guy in a book that's thousands of years old who's considered to be the wealthiest man in the world, who had more than anybody else will ever have in this day and age. And he's saying it's a waste of time. And that was the moment I realized I had to do something drastic because I was feeling like I was falling off a cliff. [00:19:01] Speaker A: That is. That's fascinating. And as you go through your story, what I would love to hear is, like, how. What was the journey for your wife in that process? Are you guys still married? And what was that? Because often God is not alone in working in the heart of a couple like he's normally working in both. [00:19:17] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:19:17] Speaker A: But there's. There's often tension because some of us are grabbing onto what is, and we find it difficult. So what was that like for you and your. Your wife at the time, journeying through that? What was that experience like? [00:19:31] Speaker B: Yeah. Okay. So my first wife and I got married, got divorced as I was really moving in through gladiators, because I was getting all caught up in the whole thing. We were fighting like cat and dog, and that just went sideways. But my second wife, who I met very shortly after that, we're still married 27 years later. [00:19:50] Speaker A: Fantastic. Congratulations. [00:19:52] Speaker B: Literally. Thank you. And she literally followed me through all of this. But her little journey, or her journey was that she had been a church girl. She'd been a pastor's kid, even, and she'd married the good Christian boy. And. And six months after they were married, she found out he was having six affairs. [00:20:09] Speaker A: Wow. [00:20:10] Speaker B: Yeah. And she didn't get the support from the church she had hoped. And in fact, they were like, no, you've got to stay with him. And she's like, well, I might have got AIDS from him if. You know. So it was a whole big thing. [00:20:19] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:20:20] Speaker B: And so she ended up saying, I'm gonna divorce the church. I'm gonna divorce my husband. I divorce men, and I'm going to diverse divorce God. And so she actually had her divorce party, and that was the night I met her. [00:20:37] Speaker A: Wow. [00:20:37] Speaker B: Literally, from that minute on, we were inseparable. But we stuck. She stuck very strongly to the divorce God. She cut. She was a militant atheist. She'd write the forward forward for atheist books. You Know, she'd get on stage in certain seminars and, and talk about hedonism being the only true path and you know, basically live, we lived that lifestyle. [00:21:05] Speaker C: Wow. [00:21:06] Speaker A: Wow. [00:21:06] Speaker C: And so, okay, so now you're, so you're at this point where you guys are together, you know, everything's which, what would appear to be amazing. You're, you're hearing, you know, you read Ecclesiastes. What happened at that point? What was the turning point from that point on? [00:21:21] Speaker B: Yeah, so it did look like everything was fantastic from the outside. You know, we had this amazing lifestyle. It was rarely. We weren't in the papers one week or, or to the next. And often, you know, yeah, sure it was because they were saying something horrible and often it was because there was something nice. But that's just the life of, you know, of being in that, in the spotlight. But to all intents and purposes it looked great. But I was literally dying inside. I was drinking copious amounts of alcohol to compensate for the copious amounts of drugs and late nights and, and also all of the books I've been reading and, and the tapes and seminars I've been going to to try and understand the meaning of life. It was kind of doing my head in. And so I said to my wife, I said, if I don't, if I don't do something drastic, I am going to literally jump off a cliff, either physically or metaphorically. In other words, I'd had it. I knew I was either going to die in this lifestyle. Well, or, or I would have to do something about it. Now she had eased up by then. She was, she's much smarter than I am. And she had just backed down on the partying. She just leave me for the three to three day, five. Five day parties and you know, tidy up the mess when I'd come back. And she was the very long suffering back, back in the day. But you know, we loved each other and she could see I was in a lot of pain, which went beyond just doing crazy stuff. Now it, now it was like I was seeking for a way out of this pain. [00:22:51] Speaker A: Yep. [00:22:51] Speaker B: And it, and I had no answers. So I said to her, I'd actually watched a documentary on TV the day before and it was about the Persian army. And the Persian army used to sail their soldiers up to the enemy's beach, let them all get out and then they'd burn the boats. Yeah. And it'd be like, you got no choice. You got to go forward, boys, because there is no backwards. And I'm like, what, what would Be the equivalent. So I said to her, all right, sweetheart, I think what we need to do is give away for free everything we own and start again in a van, go round the world, like, randomly looking for the meaning of life and interviewing people to try and find out if there is such a thing as spirituality, which I don't think there is, but I need to find out for sure. I'm fed up with reading Oprah's, you know, 10 spiritual books. I'm fed up with hearing people pontificate on, you know, on podcasts or church pulpits or whatever. I've seen it all. I don't need to hear another word. I need to experience it or nothing. And so how'd she take that? [00:24:01] Speaker A: How'd she take that conversation? [00:24:04] Speaker B: She said, why can't we sell it all? It's not a giant garage sale. There's nothing spiritual in a garage sale. I said, we've got to do something extreme. And so we need to give it all away. And so she. She was a little upset. She just had a baby. A little daughter was six months old. [00:24:21] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:24:21] Speaker B: And so she took the baby for a walk around the. The Aussie back botanical gardens. And when she came back, she was like, okay, I'm in. I think this will be a good adventure for the. For our daughter growing up. I think it'll be good. I think it might save your life, and I need you to be alive, and I'll do whatever it takes to make that happen. [00:24:40] Speaker A: What a great woman you have. What an amazingly great woman that you have. That a. She was willing to trust you and your leadership in the midst of complete uncertainty and be willing to forego one of her highest needs of stability, security, and to just trust that because her love for you was so great. Man. Whoo. What a great woman. [00:25:01] Speaker C: We probably got to get her on the podcast sometime soon. Tell us your side of the story. Okay, so you're at this. Go for it. [00:25:08] Speaker B: She gave her testimony at Dallas Seminary the other day, and I'd never heard her give the testimony. And I'm like, oh, wow, I really put you through some crappy stuff. But remember, she was also very disillusioned. We got to the highest points. We, you know, we were right up there in Australia, and it was just not satisfying, and. And it was more destructive than it was constructive. And so she knew something had to be done. [00:25:31] Speaker C: Yeah. And, you know, it's funny. I will just forget reference for everybody that are listening. I'll put in the notes the link to the video that you sent Me that has kind of the video of like, he sold it all, like, literally. I mean, and so to kind of get a better basis of this, because now here he is selling everything. So what happened from there? [00:25:50] Speaker B: Okay, so first of all, we weren't selling anything. We were giving. [00:25:52] Speaker C: I'm sorry, I'm sorry I said it again. Maybe that was just. Just my hope. So. So you're giving it all away? [00:25:58] Speaker B: Yeah. So we put an advert on YouTube, like a little video clip, which you can see a bit of on that video, and basically said, if you're in need, tell us why and you can have it. And it was, you know, the clothing and the cars and the bikes and the computers and the jewelry and the designer clothes and the designer shoes. And it was everything, literally everything we had. We gave the business. We had three businesses. We gave them all to the employees. And by the time we'd paid off all the bills and all the debt, we were left with nothing but a little white painter's van, ultimately. And in the back of it was a mattress, a queen size mattress, and that was it. There's no cooking stuff, no cleaning stuff, no nothing. And our clothes were sort of like hanging on pegs all along the side. And so that was it. So we jumped in the van and it's like, well, what are we going to do now? And so I'd come up with some rules. Rules. And the rules were to say yes to everything and go with the flow. Because at the time, the whole New Age thing was sort of kicking into high gear. And I was like, all right, let's start this. Let's start this journey following some New Age principles and see what happens. And so we'd go up to a gas station and we'd be filling up with gas, and I get talking to the guy next to me and it'd be like, oh, what are you guys up to? And I'd be like, oh, we're looking for the meaning of life. And he'd say, well, there's a guy who is a guru living in a cave over in the mountains. And we'd go and live with the guru for a little bit. We'd ask him questions and do rituals and whatever he was into, we would do. And then the guru would say, hey, there's some Hare Krishnas in the next state. So we go and live with the Hare Krishnas for a while, and then the Buddhists and then the Hindus and then the pagans and then the witches and then, I mean, the nudists. We live with Everybody. And the one rule was that whatever they asked us to do, whatever ritual, whatever their process was, we would say yes. And we would do it as if we believed it. So I wouldn't be sitting there going, come on, let's see if this works. I'd be like, no, I'm all in. This is. I'm all in. Because I knew that things just tend not to work if you're half up, half asked about them. Yep. And so that was the rule. And along the way. So we weren't working for money, but I had another rule, which was that whenever we saw something that needed to be done, we had to do it. And we had to do it completely for free. So no barter, no money, no. No expectations. It was like, you know, we'd see an old lady's fence was broken. I'd say to her, hey, I'm here. That means God sent me, or the universe. I said at the time, the universe sent me. It's my job to fix the fence. Are you okay with that? Yep. Great. And I'd fix the fence and we'd get ready to go. And inevitably they'd give us a curry or a bottle of wine or some cheese. But we. We wouldn't expect that. And it was. It was insane. It was such a switch from what I'd been involved in before, where everything was for money. How much am I getting paid? How many hours do I have to work for it? You know, how quickly can I get it over and done with? How good does it make me feel, you know, ego wise? And this was the opposite way around. This was like, I've got nothing better to do than serve you, and I'm gonna do it because. Because I can and I expect nothing from it. And it. It really was a kind of cathartic cleansing for me of all of that old ego, you know, financial ego, goal getting stuff that I had built up over so many years. So, yeah, so we went around to all of these different tribes and we did rituals would make your hair curl. When I became a Christian and I look back, I'm like, oh, wow, I'm gonna need some deliverance from some of this stuff. Any questions about that so far before I move? [00:29:47] Speaker C: No, honestly, it's been. I mean, I think we're all just kind of like, huh, like, that's a lot, man. That's a lot to give up. But do you have any thoughts? [00:29:53] Speaker A: No. The thought that I have, and I want to get to the question towards the end is this idea of like, there's there's guys are going to be listening to this that literally are in the situation of they have everything and they're completely empty. Yeah. And the only thing they need to do, they know to do is to continue living in that machine. And, and you're giving them so much hope of like, no, you can break from the machine and God is still good and God's still there. So I would love to know like, so what was your first encounter with Christianity in such a way that it would transform you rather than just perpetuate what your ideas were about? Christianity and the religion that we've established that often clouds the relationship with Jesus because it's all about religion and adherence to rules that we think are clever but really are just more law and more burden. [00:30:42] Speaker C: Yeah, And I love that question because I feel like the other side of it's like even the idea to serve wasn't enough. It had to be wrapped around something else. So I can't wait for you to share that part of the story. Go for it, man. [00:30:55] Speaker B: That's a really good point. I never, I've never thought of it that way before. That's a really, you know, works isn't the answer. I mean, it did have, it did have, it did go a long way to opening me. There were three, three key things that happened along the way. I mean there were thousands of things like, you know, how did we, how did we survive? Well, my little daughter would go playing in a playground and walk out with a $50 note in her hand she found underneath the swings. And crazy little miracles like this were happening all over the place. And some of them even, you know, semi life saving miracles. And I'm like, something is watching. Something is happening here. [00:31:26] Speaker C: Someone's got my back here. [00:31:28] Speaker B: Yeah, something or someone has got my back. And this is, this is working, but I'm not transformed. So three things. I'll whiz through them because I know we don't have a whole lot of time. [00:31:39] Speaker A: Take all the time. [00:31:41] Speaker C: This is fantastic. [00:31:42] Speaker A: Take all the time you need. [00:31:44] Speaker B: Okay, cool. So the first, the first thing that actually, let me just say those four things. The first, the first thing was my, me deciding to allow the concept of New age to possibly be true. I had been so staunchly atheist, I didn't even allow the concept of there being a spirit, spirit world. And so, you know, when we have people like loved ones, prodigal sons and daughters caught up in certain spiritual things and we don't want them to be. This is me looking back now. Right, but you just don't know that God can use everything. He can. He can use things that are not of God to draw you to God. And the very first thing that cracked that a little tiny hole in my. In my wall of atheism was me saying, I think I need to open myself up to the possibility of there being this universal force, because so many things are happening. [00:32:39] Speaker C: Yeah. There. Yeah. There had to be some kind of divine, creator, divine leader, you know. That's awesome. [00:32:45] Speaker B: That's awesome thing. Something that was bigger. Bigger than me, that was. Was in some way guiding this thing. Because the amount of people that would be just perfectly lined up when we'd meet them or say the perfect thing or, you know. Yeah. It was just. I mean, even us had. Okay, so we went to 33 countries over seven years. How do you get to countries when you're not working and you've got no money? Miracles. [00:33:10] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:33:10] Speaker B: And this is the kind of thing that would unfold. We'd suddenly get a call from someone saying, hey, I've got a writer's retreat in Africa and I'd love you and Bessie to come over. We'll pay for everything, and you can stay as long as you like. Boom. Suddenly we're in Africa. And, you know, if we'd sell the van in one place, we'd buy the same price van. And by the way, the van was about two, two thousand dollars, fifteen hundred dollars. Two thousand. So if you could imagine what it. [00:33:33] Speaker C: Was like, not exactly a supreme vehicle. [00:33:36] Speaker B: No, exactly. We'd buy the same thing in the next country and we'd start all over again. And this would happen over 33 countries in the time we were doing it. But the second thing that really shocked me was my biggest hatred of Christianity was that they were hypocrites. [00:33:53] Speaker A: Yep. [00:33:54] Speaker B: And that word, hypocrite, for me, it was like kryptonite. I was like. It was like. It's like I could spit that word out. It made me so angry. [00:34:01] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:34:02] Speaker B: I always saw myself as the furthest thing from a hypocrite, because here I was really doing it. And one day I was walking up a street next to a giant church called Mariners in California. I was having my daily walk, and it was misty, and I was, you know, listening to some New Age tape. Osho, in fact, if you know who Osho is. And I suddenly had this voice in my head, go, you are such a hypocrite. And I'm like, wait, what? It was clearly not me, because that's the last thing I would call myself. And it Said, yeah, you're an absolute hypocrite. And it said, look at that church over there. You, you, you'll go and meditate on top of a tree with crystals in your ear for 10 days if you, you know, if you're told it's some New age guru and you want to try and experiment what he does, but you won't work. Walk five minutes over the road to find out what they've got to say. That's hypocrisy. And I was like, wow, wow. It's right. Whatever that voice was, it's right. I, I have to go over, over the road. And so I went back home and I said to Bessie Bess, I got to go over the road on Sunday to, To listen to this church. I really feel like something told me to. And she's like, well, you're on your own, buddy. I'm not coming. Right? [00:35:18] Speaker A: Because she's dealing with her own church hurt that I'm sure is still very raw and still very unprocessed. And that's a man pastors that listen to this podcast. Man just, there is real church hurt that is hounding people. And man just, yeah, grace, grace, grace, grace, grace. Yeah. [00:35:37] Speaker C: There's that thing of like, well, if you don't want it now, it's never. I'm like, I keep hearing this story, this theme of man, God is, this is still the middle of the story, right? And I'm like, so many times we're like, no, if they don't, if, you know, if I share the gospel and they turn away, they've rejected, like, no, you are a piece to the journey. A polis watered, an eye plant, whatever, all that kind of stuff. Sorry, I'm butchering. Yeah, and I like butchering. But either way, everybody has their part. And in this moment, he had his part. But in this moment, God is like. [00:36:06] Speaker A: Crying out to him what a merciful God we have. So patient and so long suffering. Love it. Keep going, man. [00:36:12] Speaker C: Keep going. [00:36:14] Speaker B: Yeah. So. So we've been going for about six years living with all these different people, having all these different experiences, and they were amazing. And, you know, I learned to meditate for hours and hours and become one with the universe. And I felt all of this new age kind of woo woo stuff, but it never, it never. I had a giant hole in my soul I'd really established. You know, after a while on the road, you start to realize, oh, that was what I was feeling all those years back in, you know, in, in Sydney when we were doing the whole Fame, money thing, you know, crazy party thing. And, you know, when I was away from that, I suddenly saw, wow, I've got this giant hole and nothing filled it. A lot of things would cover it up nicely for a while, and I just figured that was perhaps what life was about. But I was determined to keep going until I'd absolutely established that there was no true answer, there was no true God, or that I was transformed, formed. And not by my words, not by anything I do not buy a book I read, not by a sermon I listened to, but by something, and I didn't know what. Which might sound weird, but I just figured God could figure it out if he was there. [00:37:24] Speaker A: Yep. [00:37:25] Speaker B: And so the second or the third thing that was really strike. Striking for both of us was that we'd be going for about six years, and I hadn't had this feeling. And I was starting to get depressed again because I started to realize, wow, there really is no God. There might be some magical force that sometimes puts good things in front of us and sometimes takes them away, but there is no God. There's no rock to stand on is what right felt like. It felt like for me. Yeah. And then I thought maybe, you know, we were driving down the back of Utah, you know, those long, massive roads straight for miles and miles. Nothing to do but think about the meaning of life. And, you know, you've got this sort of like Jurassic kind of like mountains where, you know, all these dinosaurs have roamed, and you're thinking about the meaning of life. And. And I was driving down there, and I was really, really depressed to the point where I was crying in the car. And I thought to myself, you know, I don't think I've taken this far enough. I think I'm still carrying baggage of. Of me, my ego. And so I want to give away more and go and live in a cave, on a mat. Give up heat and warmth and love and friendship and talking and entertainment and distraction and just. Just sit there and meditate until I've stripped back everything and I can see who's underneath. Who the heck am I? And so I said to my wife, I'm sorry, sweetheart, but I've got to give up more. And she's like, what? I've given up everything. We've got one suitcase, and I've given this all up for you. And you're telling me you want to give up more? I can't do this. And I'm like, well, I've got to do it. And perhaps you could go and live with A friend for a while, until I figured out what this is about. Because I knew. Okay, one of the other things. Let me throw this in. I have twin sons. And my twin sons were coming to the age where they were asking questions about the meaning of life. And I thought, as a father, if I cannot set them on the genuine, legitimate path of truth, what kind of a dad am I? And so I was literally willing to die for the right answers. And, you know, I guess that throws back to my military days and, you know, when you're all in, you're all in. [00:39:46] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:39:46] Speaker B: But. So. So that evening, she was. She was upset. She was, you know, you. I could see that this had really disturbed her. And we went to bed that night in the middle of nowhere. And the next morning, I wake up and I get out of the van, and I do my security, walk around the van, and there's this. This old surfer dude walking by. He's in a white hoodie, like, white blonde, bleach mustache. And he's like, hey, dude, what are you guys doing here? That's my American accent for you. [00:40:20] Speaker A: Good job. [00:40:20] Speaker B: Good job. [00:40:22] Speaker C: He said, it's way better than my Australian one. Just so you know. It's way better. [00:40:27] Speaker B: Yeah. Anyway, he said, you know, what are you guys doing here? And I was like, oh, we're off looking for the meaning of life. And he went, oh. He said, yeah, I know a bit about that. He said, I used to be a renunciate. And do you know what a renunciate is? [00:40:42] Speaker C: Yes. [00:40:42] Speaker B: Renunciate is a guy who lives in a cave on a mat, gives up freedom and heat and cold and food. He said, yeah, the visitors, the locals used. I was in a cave, the locals used to give me a little bowl of rice every. Every week. And I just gave up everything. And I sat and I meditated for five years, and I'm like, what? First of all, what are you doing? What are you doing here in the middle of nowhere? And secondly, how is it that you have been through the exact thing I was about to go through? And just as a side note, I've never met a renunciate before or after in my entire life. [00:41:17] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, yeah. [00:41:18] Speaker B: So. So he said, you know, let me tell you what happened. He said I was really, really good at giving things up. And he said, then one day I woke up, and I realized there was one thing I couldn't give up, and that was my pride in how good I was at giving things up. [00:41:35] Speaker A: Oh. [00:41:37] Speaker B: He said, I got out of the cave. I went down to the local, the local village. He said, I bought a bottle of Jack Daniels, a tub of ice cream, a packet of cigarettes, and I never went back. [00:41:50] Speaker A: That man has some good priorities right there. [00:41:53] Speaker B: I'm like, holy cow, I can't believe you just told me this. So, yeah, so that was one of the most mind blowing experiences. Something had put this in my way to block that. And from, from that moment on, I was like, all right, I don't need to go down that path. I'm going to take this guy's word for it. And you should have seen my wife. She was like, there is a God. [00:42:20] Speaker C: He answered my prayer. Yay. [00:42:24] Speaker B: Yeah. So any questions on that part so far? [00:42:26] Speaker C: No. No. But did you ever see that guy again? Never again. [00:42:31] Speaker B: No, I, I did. I caught up with him in a bar the day after. [00:42:36] Speaker C: Okay. [00:42:36] Speaker B: And I was trying to pick his brains for some more information, but that's all I got out of him that was worth anything. [00:42:41] Speaker C: Well, it's so funny because my brain's going, was that an angel? Like, you know what I'm saying was that, like, hey, I was there, all that kind of stuff. But I just love that. [00:42:48] Speaker A: But. And what's fascinating is it sounds like when with his epiphany, he was turning towards hedonism. [00:42:53] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:42:54] Speaker A: And your epiphany was turning away from hedonism. [00:42:56] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:42:56] Speaker A: And I find that fascinating because when you're on that journey all by yourself and you don't have that, I mean, God was definitely guiding you, no doubt about it. But you can, you can end up with that back at that hedonism if you're not careful. [00:43:09] Speaker C: Right. [00:43:10] Speaker A: Yeah. And so, yeah, this story is captivating. [00:43:13] Speaker C: So this is awesome. [00:43:14] Speaker B: You always do what you haven't done. You know, it's. The old grass is greener. So, you know, the, the kid who is brought up in church gives it up to go into the new age, and the new age kid gives it up to go into Christianity. [00:43:25] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:43:26] Speaker B: I mean, you know, we always look for what we haven't had. And because most people haven't had the crazy lifestyle I've had, a lot of people will push for it and not realizing that it's as big a dead end as anything as any of the other things. So, yeah, so that, that lifted a massive weight off my shoulder. [00:43:44] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:43:45] Speaker B: And, you know, it gave me a reprieve in my depression for a while. So we then continued, went around more places doing rituals and, you know, I, I still had no idea. But what I'd come to realize was that I thought it was probably a toss up between the new age universe and everything I'd learned about that, which was extensive. I, you know, you imagine all these thousands of hours in the car, traveling places. All I did was listening to podcasts and gurus and pre, even preachers and you know, of every, every faith, every, every kindred tribe and nation. And so, so we, we continued and after a while it started to get a little old again and I was starting to think I'm still not, not healed. [00:44:34] Speaker A: Meaningless. Meaningless. Everything under the sun is meaningless. [00:44:37] Speaker C: Yeah, back, back to Ecclesiastes. [00:44:38] Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely nothing but the wind. And, and it was upsetting me deeply again. And I was also realizing I was beginning to get to the point where it was beginning to be a bit of a drag. And I was like, said to my wife, you know, my daughter was older, she was nearly seven now, and we were starting to think, you know, we need to put you in a school, you need to have some friends. I mean, she had friends on the road. She was Mrs. Ms. Social. She, she made friends in five seconds in the playground and she was doing, she was doing homeschool in the middle of the Savannah with elephants behind her. So it wasn't like she was, she was not having a good life, but we also wanted to have a little bit of normal normalcy, you know? [00:45:16] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:45:16] Speaker B: Right. And so I decided this was, this was it. I, I had to do something absolutely insane as a last ditch attempt. [00:45:30] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:45:31] Speaker B: If this didn't work, I was going to hold up the flag as that is, atheists are the winners. And I was going to go back to being a hedonist and probably blow my brains out with cocaine and alcohol because I couldn't see any other way to fill this void. And, and so I said to my wife, right, this is my last, my last hurrah. If this doesn't work, we're all done, we'll call it quits. And I said to her, I want to do a 40 day fast because it's the, it's the craziest thing I've seen in the Bible. And I'm pretty sure this is between either the Christian God or the new age ethos. And I'm going to focus on those two things. So we had made friends, like I said, we were helping people and we'd made friends with this lady whose husband had died and she lived in this, in this house. And she said, look, my husband's died. I'm really sad. Can you come and live with me for, for A month or two. [00:46:29] Speaker C: So. [00:46:29] Speaker B: So I'm not so depressed. And she says, I've got a room out the back with a bathroom and you could lock yourself in that and do your 40 day fast. And it had a little window like a jail cell that looked over a brick wall. So I, I made out, made up a plan. And the plan was that I would do 40 days of proper full water fast. And every day I would get up at, you know, six or whatever and I would do one hour prayer, best I knew how to do prayer to the Christian God. And one hour new age or transcendental or one of the guru meditations I'd learned. And then when our prayer, when our meditation, when I pray, when our meditation, prayer, meditation, right up to seven or eight o' clock at night when I go to bed. [00:47:13] Speaker A: Wow. [00:47:14] Speaker B: So I figured if this didn't work, and then it was all a lot of absolute rubbish. So I locked myself in there. I had no books, I had no media of any description, had no food. There was no distractions at all. The only thing there was to do was pray or meditate. And so I started. And at first it was super hard. As you can imagine. I really hated the prayer. The prayer just sucked. It was like, you know, screaming into the wind. And the meditation, I'd always loved meditation because it had been a band aid over my soul. It had a lot of my hurt. It just hadn't fixed it. And so, you know, I did that for seven days. And then around about the seventh day, I started getting really angry. I was like, I was on my bed and I was screaming at the, you know, at the nothingness, saying, you absolute piece of crap. You say, knocking your lancer. I'm smashing the door down and I've got no answers. You're a F in this effing. I was just yelling at God in ab. I mean, I was hurt and I was angry, right? And in that moment, it was as if. Was as if every single cell in my whole body exploded in love. I had never felt a love like this. From the tip of my toes to the top of my head, I was absolutely surrounded down to the atomic level in this love that was so encompassing I couldn't breathe. And I started sobbing my heart out so hard, so hard I thought my guts were going to come out of my mouth. And it just felt like these massive cosmic arms were around me and. And I just heard these words just rest in me. And I cried, cried and cried. And to this day, it breaks my heart. It was just so Profound. And in that moment, several things happened. The first thing was that it felt like my brain was taken out and washed and everything I had believed, it turned around and I believe the opposite. So I, I was pretty new Agey, you know, I've been doing this now for a long time. So I was, you know, I had all of these very anti Christian ideals. You know, abortion is great and sex before marriage is wonderful and you know, everyone should have orgies every week and we should, you know, live, you know, do what you want. And you know, I, I was pretty that way inclined and literally in, in 30 seconds with not one single argument. Not, not, didn't read a book, no one gave me some good reason to change my mind. I went through a checklist of things I believed and I was like, oh well, that was a stupid idea. I believe this now. This is a. Why would you do abortion? That's a horrific. You know what I mean? [00:50:14] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. [00:50:16] Speaker B: So mind blowing. I went, I went from having one worldview to another worldview in 30 seconds and I'm like, wow, that's transformation. [00:50:25] Speaker A: Yes. [00:50:26] Speaker B: And in that moment as well, that giant void, imagine it. I saw it in my mind's eye like a fissure, you know, in a rock. Like this giant gaping crevasse with all these fissures of cracks, many of them that I didn't even know were there. And I realized how absurd it was to think that I could have self helped all those cracks into non existence. That I could have self helped this, this, this crevasse back together again. It was just like, what was I thinking? I can't even see half these fissures. And then as I was, as I was seeing this, this vision, if you like, they just started to close. So they just started to come together like this. Come together from the very bottom of the, of the crevasse all the way up until it was completely together and absolutely, absolutely seamless. And I absolutely lost that sense of emptiness. It was as if I was completely full. And I had a sense that God was my original father. And the father I had had, who I hadn't got on very well with, he was just the one. He'd lent, he'd lent to me right on this earthly plane. But my real original roots were him. And the first thing I thought as all of this is happening, once it had calmed down, the first actual thoughts I had that weren't observations of just what was happening was, oh no, does that mean I'm a Christian now? Come on, come on. [00:51:59] Speaker C: I could have saved myself Six years. [00:52:01] Speaker B: Of time, I would get a Harry Krishna little top knob and shave my head, but don't make me a Christian. And you know what I heard when I say I heard in my head? I heard this cosmic laugh, almost like a giant Santa Claus laugh going, I am so much bigger than what you think that word means. He repeated, just rest in me because I've been struggling so hard. But all these years I've been struggling for this truth, and now it was just like resting me, and it just. It cracked me again. And I just. I just sat back and I just let that love flow over me and the healing flow over me. And. And that was that, man. From that minute, my feet were on the rock. [00:52:46] Speaker A: So. So. So you have this amazing moment. You're in the. The shack, and, like, life has changed, like. Like you. From the internal to the external. Everything has been transformed. What's your first conversation like with your wife who's in the other house with her kids, caring for this woman who's going through deep grief and is desperately, I'm sure, reaching out to whatever she was valuing at that time? Just, my husband is my. I'm about to lose my husband. If this doesn't work, I'm about to lose my husband. [00:53:16] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:53:16] Speaker A: Yeah. What was that conversation like with her when all of a sudden, this healing is here, this joy is here, this peace that has been elusive for so long is now being found. What was that conversation like with her? [00:53:29] Speaker B: Well, I think it was kind of mixed because on one hand, she could see that there was. I had no desire to kill myself anymore. I had a piece, like you said, that I had not had probably ever in our marriage. And so she was super grateful for that. But then also when I said, no, it's the Christian God, she was like, okay, darling, you're on your own journey now, because I'm not following. She said, I've been down that road, and I'm not following following it because it's nothing but hurt. But obviously, whatever you've got, you've got, so we'll just agree to disagree. Now, the funny thing is that around about that time, somebody had given her a Christian worship tape, and she. She with this lady who was a Jewish Buddhist, believe it or not, the one we were staying with. Wow. [00:54:13] Speaker A: God is such. Like, we miss this in our. Like, God has such a great sense of humor. Like, he is the big guy on the block. And when you're the big guy on the block, you can do these kind of, you know, look back at these cosmic Kind of like humorous moments. You're like, man, you're, you have so much control. You just. That's fantastic. [00:54:33] Speaker C: Yeah. Just I'm in charge and I'm not scared. [00:54:36] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:54:36] Speaker C: Of your journey. I'm not scared of you. [00:54:38] Speaker A: I'm not scared of the questions. I'm not scared of the bad language. I'm not scared of you crying out to me in the midst of this deepest, darkest valley you've ever been. I'm not scared of that. [00:54:47] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:54:48] Speaker A: Because I know how this ends and I love you and I know your name. And I've been pursuing you longer than you can even imagine. And when, when, when the thing, when the time is right for such a time as this. [00:54:58] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:54:59] Speaker A: It's going to make sense. [00:55:00] Speaker C: Yeah. Okay. So now you're seven days into this, this revelation. [00:55:03] Speaker B: What happens once just on what you said, one of the biggest realizations in retrospect is to realize exactly, actually that, that God was right there in people and around people that I would never have imagined him to be using to guide me towards him, you know, so wherever you are, wherever your prodigal sons and daughters are, don't worry. God's right there nudging them what the right direction. So, yeah, so after my 7 days being ex military, I'm like, all right, I promised I was going to do 40 days, so I'm going to do 40 days. And what I did was though, I changed it up and I said to my, well, because I didn't speak to my wife until the end, so let's, let's stick with that. So I, I, I wrote her a note and got her to give me a Bible and a Dao de Ching. Now the Dao Te Ching is the Chinese or the, the Taoist Bible. And I used to think it was the most wise, wonderful book I'd ever read in my life. And the Bible was completely boring and confusing. And so for the remaining 40 days, I thought, I want to see if this sticks or if it's some kind of weird dream thing that in five days time I'll have forgotten. [00:56:12] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:56:12] Speaker B: So I started reading those two things and over the, over the period of the next few days, the Daddy Ching, it felt like reading the back of a packet of cereal. It was utterly meaningless. And I'm like, what was I thinking? And the Bible suddenly became like 3D, 45D, 10D. And I suddenly saw depth for wisdom I'd never seen before. And so the remaining 40 days really allowed everything that God had done in those literally 40 minutes to bed. [00:56:41] Speaker C: In. [00:56:43] Speaker B: I mean, there was moments of me being a little bit peeved because I'm like, dude, you did that in 40 minutes. Why did you make me walk around the world for seven years? [00:56:51] Speaker C: We could have solved this with a conversation. [00:56:54] Speaker B: Solved it. [00:56:55] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:56:55] Speaker B: And. And he's. [00:56:57] Speaker A: He. [00:56:57] Speaker B: The feeling I got was he said you had built so many layers of. To protect yourself from me that you had to take. You had to take them down one at a time before I. I would be. You would feel me, but I was always there beside you. And, yeah, so it was my pride and my ego and my stubbornness that had distanced me from God. And. And each of the. The bad things, even the depressions I went in during the journey, were little strips of that ego coming off, realizing, I can't do this. I can't do this by myself. I can't do this by myself. So, yeah, that was it. But I wanted to tell you a funny, funny part. So my wife had been given this tape while she was living with this. This lady. And it was a worship tape. And she put it on one day when she was doing the washing up in the morning. And she'd said, wow, I don't know why, but this tape just makes me feel so happy. I'm going to do this every day. So her and this lady would wash up together with this worship tape on. [00:57:53] Speaker C: Time out, time out, time out, time out, time out. A Jewish Buddhist and a unbelieving atheist. Atheist put on a Christian tape to get it. Wow. Okay, sorry, I just want to make sure I get that. [00:58:05] Speaker A: I'm telling you, man, there's a comedy club in heaven and they're rolling this on a regular. [00:58:09] Speaker C: Oh, I love this. This is awesome. I'm sorry. Keep going, Keep going, brother. [00:58:12] Speaker B: So. So, because I'm pretty handy with a computer, one of the first questions she asked me when I came out, she goes, hey, Jeff, if I give you this worship take, can you cut out all the references to Jesus? No. You imagine a worship soul with all these, like, gaps in the middle of it or. Beeps. [00:58:32] Speaker C: Wow, that's funny. [00:58:34] Speaker B: So, yes, so that was what happened up till then. And then we sort of settled. We decided, right, we were going to settle down. And it wasn't long after that, I started going back to that Mariners church, but I refused to go into worship. So I still had a phobia about worship. To me, it was brainwashing. I would go in and listen to the preacher, because that was like going to listen to it at the Robin seminar. And I was good with that, I wanted to learn more. But worship, that was a. That was a bridge too far. It took me a long time to realize that worship is the reason you go to church, and the rest is just cherries on the top. So. So it wasn't long after that that she came along to a seminar. And again, talking about the comedy of God. It wasn't some great big spiritual seminar about the depth of Jesus dying for you on the cross. It was a. Who's the guy who does the. The stuff about money? Christian guy. [00:59:28] Speaker A: Dave Ramsey. [00:59:28] Speaker B: Dave Ramsey. It was a Dave Ramsey seminar. And halfway through, something hit my wife so strongly, she started sobbing in the middle of a day. Frankly. Seminar about how to save your money. [00:59:39] Speaker A: They're all thinking, wow, how much debt do they have? [00:59:41] Speaker C: Exactly. [00:59:43] Speaker A: None. [00:59:44] Speaker B: None. [00:59:45] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:59:45] Speaker B: Yeah, exactly. And so she came out and she was sobbing and sobbing and saying, I don't know, but I'm gonna. I'm gonna take the leap. I'm gonna give my heart to this person called Jesus, and I'm gonna go for it. And now when she said go for it, she was serious. She was, like, leading the women's. The women's church. By the end of the, like, six months, she'd been there. Wow. Volunteering for everything. And of course, as we know now, she's in Dallas seminary doing double degrees, theology and so forth. And so she went all in, and it transformed her life. It was insane to watch. From my perspective, she was like. It was like she was floating across the room. For six months, every morning she'd get up at four in the morning and pack a bag with sausages and food and walk around the back streets handing it out to the homeless and praying for them. And I'm like, who is this woman? But so she kind of leapfrogged me after that. [01:00:39] Speaker C: And they usually do. They usually do. That's the problem. Wow. Okay, so that's. That's crazy, man. That's crazy. And so you. So you gave your heart to Christ. [01:00:50] Speaker B: Wow. [01:00:51] Speaker A: And so I feel like it wasn't more. I feel it was a more of God captured the heart rather than you giving it. [01:00:57] Speaker C: Like, so you surrendered completely. [01:00:59] Speaker A: Right. [01:01:00] Speaker B: Wow. [01:01:01] Speaker C: That's incredible. Incredible. So, dude. So, okay, so when. What was the year that. [01:01:06] Speaker A: That. [01:01:06] Speaker C: That year seven was. What was that? [01:01:12] Speaker B: So, gosh, you got to do maths here. So my daughter was 16. [01:01:17] Speaker C: It was 2009. 2,000 times. [01:01:20] Speaker B: So seven minus. Yeah, 2009. [01:01:22] Speaker C: Something like that. [01:01:24] Speaker A: Wow. [01:01:25] Speaker C: That's crazy. [01:01:27] Speaker A: What are you doing? So now. What are you doing now? Well, we'll have you on again. And we want to process that. [01:01:34] Speaker C: Yeah, we need to have you back on. [01:01:35] Speaker A: Because what I do want to do is circle, circle back to that question. Guys, listen to this. And he's like, he has it all. Yeah, whatever he thinks all is. And he is empty and completely void. And maybe he's even doing the church thing, but it's still not, it's transactional. It's not relational. And so what, what would you say to this guy that, that finds himself in that spot right now? [01:02:02] Speaker B: Well, I think most guys don't think that they have it all, even if from the outside, others would. And so there, I want them to know that there is no climbing the ladder to, to a happiness that fulfills all of you. There's just, that just isn't a thing. And I think rehab and Hollywood show us that, that in Technicolor that it does not work. And I, I, I think you don't have to do stupid stuff like give everything away and live in a van for seven years. That was just because I was a dunderhead and, and, you know, needed, like I said, to have my, I needed to be washed out inside and out from all the, all the crap I put into myself. So I did, I heard something the other day that kind of summed it up for me, and it was Jesus did so much for everybody that if he did any more, he would have been taking away your free will. In other words. Yeah, if you really think about that, everything in your life is there because Jesus has done everything for you. And he just leaves you with that free will to either accept him or reject him. And if you accept him, he's free to give you more, give you more for your soul, give you more for your fulfillment, give you more peace, give you better relationships. And that's all I want. Now I'm like, okay, I don't need to go around the world looking anymore. I need to just look at Jesus and focus on, on his heart and let that expand me outwards. [01:03:38] Speaker A: Man, that's beautiful. Have you had any reconnections with any of the rich and famous that you hung out with at one point? Have you had a chance to connect with them and kind of maybe investigate what God's journey with them has been over the years? [01:03:54] Speaker B: Yeah. Well, when we came back and I decided to get brave enough to start telling people about it, I became what my wife calls a Facebook evangelist. And I would post a Prod the bear and post, post these Christian memes and, and, you know, these creationist memes. And, and whilst I got a lot of flack, friendly flack, mostly we would get dms. We'd get people sending private messages saying, can you please tell me what, what happened with you guys? I'm really seeking something or I really need to know because I'm depressed. And so it became a little bit of a ministry to help people behind the scenes. And miracles happened for one of the girls who was our, our in our model agency. She became, she became the, the, the adult industry dominatrix of the year award winner. It's a big deal in America. And she was like, she was on all the big adult shows and she was like this big goddess. Anyway, she is now full on for Jesus, fully baptized, going around the world. People started falling off the head mystery and getting baptized. And it was like, wait, why? You know, and then I'm watching the media and people like, you know, Kat Von D and Russell Brand and you know, people are just getting baptized. I'm like, wow, what's going on? There's a movement here and these people were fed up with the church as it stands as a, a man made body. And they're looking for the spirit that is behind it, which is what we should be looking for in the beginning. And that's, that's all you need to look for. I mean, like I said, you don't need to run around the world. You just need to, to, to. To be open to allowing that spirit move through you. [01:05:41] Speaker A: Dude, this has been a fantastic. [01:05:44] Speaker C: I told you this is gonna be. I was like, I can't wait to get this guy on. I'm so excited. I know it's. And this is a little longer than the normal ones, but man, this has been amazing. Yeah. And so, Jeff, we've loved having you on, man. You know, I know you kind of had that, that thought, but any, any final thoughts before we move into our, our fast five? [01:06:01] Speaker A: I feel like the fast fives at this point. We're gonna do it. [01:06:03] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, yeah. [01:06:04] Speaker A: But I'm like, man, that's kind of a letdown after this. [01:06:06] Speaker C: I know, it's kind of a letdown. I know, I know. But. But man, any final thoughts that you want to share? Because I think there's a lot of guys that are not willing to go to this extreme, but are like, I'm lost. And then they just live frustrated. They live like in this tension of like they want to do something, but they don't know because they're like, well, maybe it is the money, maybe it is the fame. But what would you say to them? What's some encouragement you would say to those guys about the situation? [01:06:31] Speaker B: All right, so first thing that springs my mind is, is the way I. I saw things was there's nothing more important in the entire universe, never mind the world universe, than finding out if there is a God and if there is having a relationship with him, everything else is a far distant second. So it's easy to get caught up in our daily lives of like, paying the bills and blah, blah, blah. But. But at the end of the day, if there is a God, you're gonna. You're gonna need to know. You're gonna want to know, right? If there isn't a God, then all right, who cares? But so. So just take it seriously. I mean, you've got children as well. Do you want them to be guided again? Someone said to me the other day, he goes, do you know there's something worse than going to hell? And I was like, well, what's worse than going to hell? Being in hell and having your son or daughter tap you on the shoulder saying, why didn't you tell me? [01:07:23] Speaker C: Oh, my gosh. [01:07:28] Speaker A: Wow. [01:07:29] Speaker C: Talk about a mic drop. There's always one, but there was like 11 on this show, and that was like a mic drop from the top of the Grand Canyon. I think that is the most important thing, is for us to walk in this boldness. Jeff, I'm so grateful for your faithfulness to say, I'm going to do this. And when you talked about your two boys and man and the journey. Guys, we have such a responsibility to know what we believe for everybody who comes after us. [01:07:52] Speaker A: Yes, yes. [01:07:53] Speaker C: It is so important. Oh, man, that was good. That was so good. I know. It does feel kind of like I'm kind of a moot point to do the fast five. We're going to do them, but I mean, man, this has been amazing. I want to get on again now really quick. You now serve in a non profit. Can you share a little bit about that? You know, I want to have you back on and talk more in detail, but just share that because we do want to plug that for you today. [01:08:16] Speaker A: Yes. [01:08:16] Speaker C: As well. Go for it. What? What's that? What's that all include. [01:08:19] Speaker B: So I work with a nonprofit called Hope is Alive, and it's recovery and mentoring homes around the country. We have 26 of them now. When I was praying about this, I said to God, I've spent so long trying to destroy your kingdom. What can I do to try and build it back up again? And Be of assistance. And this job a week later popped up. And I call it the Navy seals of recovery homes because we have an 85% success rate, which is higher than anything else in the country. And we are not just changing lives, bringing families back together again, getting people set up on their feet, getting them biz jobs, bringing them back into the, into the real world. We are turning them into disciples. And they're going out into the community and they're starting Bible studies, starting youth groups, starting churches. And so it's such a powerful ministry and it has such a wide reaching effect. And I work down in the Dallas Fort Worth area on one of the houses down there. And so if anybody wants to know a little bit more about what we're doing and, and either get involved or, or just, you know, hit me up with some questions, you can get me on hopeisalive.net man, that's, that's fantastic. [01:09:29] Speaker A: And gentlemen, if you're, if you're waking up to maybe an addiction or something that you've been wrestling with and you thought you had under control, but you realize it's just controlling you, this would be a great ministry for you to tag into to get set, to get reset and man, find that hope. Because hope is alive. [01:09:44] Speaker C: Yeah, it's so good. [01:09:45] Speaker B: And so we also work with families, one of the few groups with families, and help them if they have people who are in addiction. So it's an entire program where we train them, we mentor them, we work with them, we support them, and it's free. So then get better than that, man. [01:10:03] Speaker A: God bless you, brother. [01:10:04] Speaker C: So good. I'm so excited about this, man. I love it. Jesus is the only hope of the world. We've said it all the time. And his word is true. And so to walk in this boldness is incredible. Jeff, thank you for your faithfulness. Thank you for your story. So, so powerful, man. And so we will put Hope is Alive in our notes. So you have that there as well. As long as the video link, you know, you'll see all those things. But if they want to get ahold of you. Infoownlegacy and we will shoot this right over to Jeff. Infonownlegacy.org if you're interested in wanting to learn more about Hope is Alive. Want to hear Jeff's story? He's not very personable and so I don't think you're going to want to talk to him. No, he would love to talk to you. I love that. Jeff, you found freedom and you found freedom by man. Every Channel. But you're right. The story is God is not just there. He's literally chasing after us. [01:10:52] Speaker A: Right. [01:10:52] Speaker C: And we don't see that. We're like, I'm so alone. And it's like, no. Even if it's a. If it's a, you know, a surfer, just like, I'm a hedonist. And God's like, I'm gonna just have him walk by right now. [01:11:03] Speaker B: Yes. [01:11:03] Speaker C: And just have that conversation. God is a rescuing God. He walks, wants to rescue us. I love it. And I love that when he rescues us, he wants us to help rescue. He wants us to show our children the rescuer as well. So I love it. Jeff, you're amazing, and I'm grateful that. I'm grateful to know you, brother. [01:11:18] Speaker A: So that is good, man. [01:11:20] Speaker C: Well, man, this moves us into our fast five. That is going to bring us way down, but we'll do it anyway. [01:11:28] Speaker A: I do have one very important question to start off. So it's. It's 0.5. [01:11:32] Speaker C: Yeah, it's fine. [01:11:33] Speaker A: Are you a rugby or a football guy? [01:11:38] Speaker B: Technically, I'm neither. I'm not a big sports fan, believe it or not. But if I was going to be anything, it would be a rugby guy, because bashing people. Yeah. [01:11:47] Speaker A: My son, he's at Tarleton State University. He just joined the rugby club and it's, like, transformed his life. He's like, dad, this is amazing. The best thing ever. [01:11:55] Speaker C: That's awesome. [01:11:56] Speaker A: It's like football, but without pads. And it's amazing. And it's. Yeah, he loves it. [01:12:00] Speaker B: It's primal. [01:12:01] Speaker C: You're talking to primal. That's the word. [01:12:03] Speaker A: That's the word. [01:12:04] Speaker C: You're talking to the commander here. [01:12:05] Speaker A: Okay? [01:12:05] Speaker C: I mean, come on. Commando. Commando. Sorry. Please don't hit me or anything. Please don't body slam me. [01:12:13] Speaker A: So into the fast five. [01:12:14] Speaker B: Okay. [01:12:14] Speaker C: And into the fast five. You want to do it again? No, I'm just kidding. We can do it again. There it is. Awesome. Fast five. Okay, Jeff, number one. Who do you most admire and why? [01:12:24] Speaker B: Okay, so I gave up most of my heroes, as you can imagine, when I noticed that most of them weren't that heroic at the end of the day. But I do have a huge passion for martyrs. And even as an atheist, I was studying a lot of books on martyrs. So anyone who is willing to give, give up their life for the gospel, I want to know about them. So Peter and Wim Brant, you know, talk to Christ and those kind of guys. I don't have a single one, but you give me A good story where someone's willing to do die for what they believe, and I want to know about it. [01:12:58] Speaker C: That's awesome. Okay, question number two. Seems like a moot point. Where would you want to go on vacation after 33 countries, where would you like to go on vacation? [01:13:07] Speaker B: Where? Wherever my wife and daughter are. [01:13:10] Speaker A: Yes. [01:13:10] Speaker C: That's awesome. [01:13:12] Speaker B: I've been everywhere. [01:13:13] Speaker C: I've been everywhere. I want to be with them. That's so cool. Number three, what are you currently reading? A Bible. You know, obviously the Bible. But then are you reading any other books as well? [01:13:22] Speaker A: Yes. [01:13:23] Speaker B: Now, I want you to hear this because this book is blowing my socks off. It's called Abba's Child by Brennan Manning. Yes. [01:13:31] Speaker A: Oh, dude, I got that book. [01:13:34] Speaker B: Transformative. [01:13:36] Speaker A: Yes. [01:13:36] Speaker C: Abba's Child. Okay. [01:13:37] Speaker A: Oh, fantastic. Like, it's an old book. It's like 30, 40 years old. Okay. This book has stood the test of time. Yeah. Because I remember I got it back in the early 90s, and it is. It is all deep relationships with this ABBA father. It's fantastic. Fantastic. [01:13:52] Speaker C: Okay. [01:13:53] Speaker B: Give me. Gives me chills. And I can't wait every morning, every evening to read it. So. Yeah, get it. [01:13:58] Speaker C: Okay. Okay. Let's check. I'll check that out. I need to check that out. I mean, this stuff is great. Anyway, so Manning is. Yeah. So what's the goal you have for this year? [01:14:08] Speaker B: Hope is alive. My goal is to expand it through Dallas so we can get five. Five more houses. Get a lady's house. And just. Just to grow more in. In. In the Lord and. And be the wind beneath my wife's wings. She's got these double degrees, and. And I'm learning to cook, and I'm. One of my goals is to be excellent at French sauces because, you know, they make everything better. [01:14:33] Speaker C: That is true. [01:14:34] Speaker A: That is true. Well, if you need anyone to practice on, Bill and I are available. [01:14:37] Speaker C: We're more than happy to taste test everything you want. [01:14:40] Speaker A: We would be more than happy to be your official taste testers at New Hope is alive. [01:14:44] Speaker C: Yeah. November 7th. When I'm there, I'm expecting some awesome sauce. That's all I'm saying. So. But. Okay, well, last thing. What's the most impactful piece of advice you've ever been given? [01:14:54] Speaker B: It was probably from those Persian soldiers, generals who said, burn your boats. [01:15:02] Speaker A: You're all in. [01:15:03] Speaker B: And you're all in. Burn your boats. You're all in. But when I. When I. I want to clarify that a little bit by saying. Saying you don't have to be all in instantly. You just have to start taking bites of the apple until you're all in. [01:15:21] Speaker A: This has been so good, man. [01:15:22] Speaker C: I know. [01:15:23] Speaker A: Well, exhausted. [01:15:25] Speaker C: We're gonna have you on next week, and we're good to have you. [01:15:27] Speaker A: So we're going to change the podcast to New Hope Podcast. [01:15:30] Speaker C: Exactly. The Hope Is Alive podcast. No, it's so good, man. We're so glad to have you on. This has been a huge blessing. Better, man. More than what I thought. Guys, if you are in a journey like this, I hope you'll share this with someone else. Yes. Who's in a very similar journey. Jesus is hope, man. That's what I got from this. And he's pursuing us like crazy. I love it. Jeff, you're awesome, brother. Thank you so much. Can't wait to see you again. [01:15:56] Speaker B: Thank you, guys. [01:16:00] Speaker C: What'd you say? What's that? [01:16:02] Speaker B: I said, you guys are so professional. I just love this. I want to talk to you forever. [01:16:05] Speaker C: Well, we are going to have him on again because you just. That's amazing. Wow. We love this, man. It's such a blessing. Dude, I'm so grateful for this. Thank you so much for being on. We will. We will definitely have you on again. And we got to get his wife on, too. [01:16:16] Speaker A: Yes, yes. [01:16:17] Speaker C: I mean, when you marry up, you marry up. And I believe he married way out of his league. And so we are so glad to have you on, brother. Thank you for your time, guys. Thank you so much for sticking around and watching or listening and watching. Please make sure you share it like it, subscribe, share it with your friends. We'd love to stay in contact with you guys. [01:16:36] Speaker A: Absolutely. God bless you guys. Have a good week. [01:16:38] Speaker C: Have a great week. [01:16:39] Speaker A: Thanks for listening to the Known Legacy podcast. We'd love to hear from you. [01:16:43] Speaker B: So email us your questions or comments to infononelegacy IO.