Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: You're listening to the Known Legacy podcast brought to you by Known Legacy Ministries. For more information, go to knownlegacy.org now here's your hosts, Bill and Travis.
[00:00:12] Speaker B: Good morning, Travis. How you doing?
[00:00:14] Speaker A: Good afternoon, Bill.
[00:00:17] Speaker B: Wow, that was a long. Good morning. Good afternoon.
[00:00:18] Speaker A: Yeah, good morning. Good afternoon. Welcome to no Legacy Podcast. We are so excited you guys are listening to us. Kyle is the producer in the corner. Hello. And we have a quite an amazing show for you. We are doing a little something different in the month of July or August or June or September.
[00:00:34] Speaker B: It doesn't matter.
[00:00:35] Speaker A: You know what? It doesn't matter. Summer dates are irrelevant. It doesn't matter. But it's the best stuff. We know that we have new visitors, we have new guests always checking out the podcast and these are some of our favorites. And so today Bill's gonna share with us his favorite in just a minute. But until then, yes, handful of data details. As always, check us out on Instagram, Facebook, YouTube. Share like if you want to. InfoOneLegacy.org is a great way to give us an email. If you want to find out about Bill and his speaking engagements coming up. Or book Bill for speaking engagement, go known legacy.org you can find out about his book as well as make a donation to the mission ministry of Known Legacy if you so choose. And Bill has some amazing things that no Legacy does beyond the podcast that you may be interested in.
[00:01:15] Speaker B: Yeah, well, you know, one of the things, guys, we know that most guys are lonely. That's the, that's the reality of it. And we want to have a place for guys to connect.
[00:01:21] Speaker A: Right?
[00:01:21] Speaker B: And man, in that we have a adrenaline shot which you totally missed this morning, Travis, giving us a new.
[00:01:27] Speaker A: I'm sorry.
[00:01:28] Speaker B: That's okay though. The adrenaline shot, which is at 6:45am on Thursday mornings. The link will be provided below and it's a call in study. It's for you to connect. So if you're new here, you want to connect with some guys, it's a great place to just be a part of a study. Wherever you're going in the morning, on Thursday morning over the phone, we'd love to have you there. Next thing is if you are trying to figure out where you are in your journey with the Lord. If you want to challenge yourself in your growth, we have a free wake up guide and seven day reset we designed just for you in your journey. And that's free the links below. We'd love to have you check that out. And man, take the next seven days to challenge yourself and grow to become who God has created you to become. And finally, we have a known legacy brotherhood Facebook page that we would love you guys to join. This can be a place just to get some encouragement and have a place to understand, to kind of hear what's going on with known legacy, what we're doing in and throughout the area. And a place that you can go to on Facebook that is at least encouraging a little bit.
[00:02:22] Speaker A: I love it. And before we get to Bill's, one of his favorite episodes. Question of the day.
[00:02:26] Speaker B: Question of the day.
[00:02:29] Speaker A: Here's the question of the day in summertime. I'm guessing that when you're gonna be listening to this and one of the all time great summertime, do Christmas in July, bunker down, turn the AC low and just watch it and get all the feels.
[00:02:43] Speaker B: Yeah, Christmas.
[00:02:44] Speaker A: Here's the question of the day.
[00:02:45] Speaker B: Okay.
[00:02:46] Speaker A: What is your favorite scene from Christmas vacation?
What is your favorite scene from the movie Christmas Vacation?
[00:02:57] Speaker B: Kyle. You want to go first, Kyle?
[00:02:59] Speaker A: Yeah, So I saw that movie good. When it came out.
You mean you'll watch it every year?
[00:03:07] Speaker B: It's like a staple in my.
[00:03:09] Speaker A: Oh my gosh. Yeah, that like November, we start throwing that on, just on repeat kind of rolling.
[00:03:13] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:03:14] Speaker A: I have not seen that movie in forever, so I can't come up with them. But I. I will offer an alternative. Okay. Okay, we're open. We're going to European vacation.
[00:03:24] Speaker B: Oh. So is this like a revised question of the day? Revised question of the day.
[00:03:28] Speaker A: Part two.
[00:03:29] Speaker B: Part two.
[00:03:30] Speaker A: Hey, look, kids. Big Ben parliament, which may be the most quoted.
[00:03:35] Speaker B: That's a great.
[00:03:36] Speaker A: I still do that today.
[00:03:38] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:03:39] Speaker A: Except I'm like, hey kids, a deer. And they're all. They don't even look anymore. They just know exactly what I'm talking about.
[00:03:43] Speaker B: Oh, dear goodness.
[00:03:45] Speaker A: So great quote. Great pull, great pull. I'm glad we expanded. Yes, we expanded the window just a hair for that one.
[00:03:51] Speaker B: What about you? What about you?
[00:03:52] Speaker A: Oh, man, there's so many great ones. You know when he walks into the. The department store and he's looking for a gift for his lovely bride. Oh, is it hoot.
[00:04:00] Speaker B: Hotter. It's hotter in here.
[00:04:03] Speaker A: Great scene, but I would honestly say just the. The entire Christmas light montage where he's putting them up. He's stapling him through his shingles in his roof, right?
He's trying to put it on the gutter and all of a sudden he falls back against the tree. Saves his life, right?
And then you know that final scene when he's. He. He Desperately wants the light. They don't go on.
He. You see the relationship with the parents and the grandparents, right? And then all of a sudden, that last.
And he puts the lights in the sparks.
[00:04:34] Speaker B: Really good interpretation.
[00:04:35] Speaker A: I'm trying. I'm trying. I've seen it. I've seen it a couple times. Two, three times. I know a few things. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. That whole thing. And. And I love it. And part of the funny thing is you can't see it, but we have about 30 different items plugged into one outlet right now. And so I think it's the garage. That's what made you think this is vacation. Absolutely. Yeah. What about you, Bill?
[00:04:57] Speaker B: So part of that where he's holding on to, like, like, the gutter and it shoots the. The ice.
[00:05:03] Speaker A: I don't know, Margo.
[00:05:04] Speaker B: Exactly. Why is the carpet wet, Todd?
[00:05:06] Speaker A: I don't know, Margot.
[00:05:08] Speaker B: That's probably my favorite because we still quote that in my house all the time.
Love it, love it, love it.
[00:05:13] Speaker A: It's not going in the living room.
You can't talk to my wife that way. I wasn't all of it. That's so good.
[00:05:23] Speaker B: I know. It's such. It's such a good movie.
[00:05:25] Speaker A: Christmas Vacate, dude, When that song hits.
[00:05:27] Speaker B: Oh, it's so good.
[00:05:27] Speaker A: I'm all in. I'm on. So, anyways, Bill, introduce us to the video we're gonna watch today.
[00:05:30] Speaker B: You know, as we talked about some of the. Some of the. The throwbacks. One of my favorite ones that I really enjoyed was with Matt Hammett. Yes. He talked about church. It was episode 209, when you experience pain caused by the church. And so, guys, if you've ever felt like, man, I just. Have just been hurt, but there is a healing on either side. This was a great podcast. Matt is a man, is a creative follower. Follower of Jesus. He does a lot with Save the Storks as well as he's a singer, songwriter. He was the former lead singer of Sanctus Real. And I mean, you're going to love this one. So check out this episode. Episode 209 with Matt Hammett on Church Hurt.
Matt, we're so glad to have you on today. Thank you so much for being here again, man. We're super excited. So thanks for being a part of this and kicking us back off. Over the last couple of months, there have been a few songs that have kind of jumped out to me, and one of them is your song Church Hurt. And I love it, and it speaks volumes. So it really Made me interested of, like, you know, again, being a pastor. We don't. Travis, I don't know if you guys. We don't know much about church hurt. No one's ever been hurt in the church. No. So it's very foreign. But. No, the overall is. I'd love to hear where that came from, the heart of the song and kind of, you know, the inspiration of it and kind of why. Why you wrote it.
[00:06:41] Speaker A: And I would love to see kind of what the reception has been to that song because it's. It's definitely not the typical, you know, Christian radio song that you're playing out there.
[00:06:51] Speaker B: So.
[00:06:52] Speaker A: Yeah, that's. That's my angle.
[00:06:54] Speaker B: So if you could share that, we'd love to hear your thoughts on that.
[00:06:57] Speaker C: Yeah, well, you know, it came from.
I guess the inspiration for the song, for doing the song is a little different than, I guess, some of the inspiration for the actual heart and lyric of the song itself. The inspiration for doing the song was me hearing so many people who just kept telling me, you know, how much hurt they had in the church. I kept encountering people who were walking away from the church who had so much pain. And then it kind of just got me going, like, I should write about my own experience.
And so my own experience was when I was young, my family went to a church since I was, like. I mean, since I was born pretty much. And in fourth grade was the first time that I remember feeling what we would call church hurt. You know, my dad was part of the board. He, you know, we faithfully served the church. We were in there all the time. I mean, anytime the church doors were open, we were there serving as a family.
And my dad was part of a group of elders in the church who questioned some decisions that were being made and were kind of pushed out of the church because things were being exposed. That leadership didn't want to be exposed.
And so we were kind of asked to leave, in essence. And so I remember, like, my parents telling me we were never going back to this church. That was the only thing I'd ever known. And it was such a deeply painful experience for me. And not just for me, but to watch my parents be separated from community of people that they had loved for so long and served. And so that was kind of the first part. Then we went to another church where my parents stayed at that church remained faithful through multiple leadership splits or church splits and leadership issues. And so, you know, for us, it was just really painful. But my parents always taught me that we serve God. And not people.
And they always just kept their eyes on God. They kept their eyes on each other. They kept their eyes on the work that was right before them that they were called to do and that they lived that way. And I think when I was confronted with the reality that so many people I knew were either leaving church or. Or deconstructing because of pain that they had experienced behind church walls, I felt like, okay, how can I infuse this powerful lesson my parents have taught me into a song starting with empathy? The empathy piece is, hey, I've been there. Right. Like, I still talk about it. I still feel it. I understand.
Secondly being the question, where have I put my faith, God or in people?
And, you know, most importantly, Jesus was the very first to feel church hurt when he was betrayed. And so I'm like, okay, Jesus understands our faith is in God and not people.
And how. How could I encourage people with kind of this progression that starts with empathy and ends with truth? And so, you know, the heart of the song is really felt by me, like, because I've felt it. But it's also.
Our feelings only go so far.
[00:10:16] Speaker A: Right.
[00:10:17] Speaker C: We have to confront our feelings with the truth. And so that was my hope in this song, was to make something really guttural, but also really truthful.
[00:10:25] Speaker B: I love it. I mean, I go for it.
[00:10:27] Speaker A: Yeah. So how has it been received?
Has it been. Has it been embraced? Or our church is like, yes, this is what we need, or is it like, no, we'd rather have another worship song pushed out by you Met actually
[00:10:40] Speaker C: my home church in Toledo, Ohio. You know, I live in Nashville now, but when I go up there and visit, that's my home church still. And that was the church I actually grew up at post kind of that initial church heart experience.
The church that we experienced multiple splits in that my parents have remained faithful to to this day. They actually invited me to speak on a Sunday morning, all three services to give them a message on church hurt, which I thought was incredible. I mean, that was such a beautiful opportunity to take the platform and speak to people, because they had seen an influx of people from other churches who've been hurt, and they wanted to speak to forgiveness and speak to the process of healing and speak to the process that no. Or the truth that no church is perfect.
[00:11:28] Speaker A: Right.
[00:11:28] Speaker B: In terms of.
[00:11:29] Speaker C: So it's been embraced by some people in that way.
I think actually, way more pastors have embraced it than I've thought, because obviously, we know that pastors are just as hurt as people in the church.
[00:11:42] Speaker B: Absolutely.
[00:11:43] Speaker C: And so Radio man, it was just too.
It was too big of a weight for them to carry. I think there were a lot of stations that wanted to play it, but felt a weight of responsibility that if we open this conversation, we have to finish it or carry it on. And I just don't think they felt that they were just able to do that. And I totally get it. You know, it's. Yeah, it's. It's like, how do we open that conversation with the listener or their families?
And so.
Yeah. But then there were like, five or six stations that are actually have pretty big audiences that did pick it up and play it. Like Chattanooga J103, that was actually their highest testing song on the radio when they play.
[00:12:34] Speaker B: Wow.
[00:12:35] Speaker C: So.
So I. I would say there's evidence that people want to hear it and people resonate with it. But I also agree it's not something that you can just play on recurrent and everybody's gonna like, oh, church hurts back on the radio.
Sing along, kids.
[00:12:55] Speaker B: But I think it speaks to the bigger paradigm of honesty and authenticity.
[00:12:58] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:12:59] Speaker B: Like, there's. There's this moment of like, hey, we're all messed up. I mean, I'm finding that more of every time that I read the scripture, my lens right now is like, wow, everyone's broken all the time.
[00:13:10] Speaker A: All the time.
[00:13:10] Speaker B: And I'm like, why did you not just start with Earth 2.0 and just kind of make us robots? But I just. But I just see this.
[00:13:17] Speaker A: But.
[00:13:17] Speaker B: But it's interesting because the more I have conversations with people, it really is perspectives more than it is. This one is intended to do evil.
It's like they just are seeing it from different platform. Do you find that same.
Same basis, or what are you hearing from people that have come and talked to you about that?
[00:13:36] Speaker C: Yeah.
So ask it one more time.
[00:13:39] Speaker B: You're saying it's not like, okay, you know. You know, Tom, this guy had some giant desire to want to take the church down. He just had a different perspective than Susie, who was hurt this way. And instead of trying to work together, they're like, no, I'm right. No, I'm right. Are you finding that too, or what do you, like, what are you finding?
[00:14:00] Speaker C: Most people's stories that kind I get, obviously get a lot of them are, I think just lack of willingness to openly communicate with each other and work things out, you know, like, it is. I think it's like differing perspectives. Like, you're saying, like, you know, people think or feel this way. Like you said, like, Tom Or Susie or whoever.
[00:14:25] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:14:26] Speaker C: And then this other group feels a different way, and it's almost like politics. Like, instead of getting together in the middle of the aisle to work it out, they just, like, keep distancing themselves from each other and getting angrier and angrier, you know, And. And then there's obviously the stories I get of.
Of abuse from both sides. Pastors feeling abused.
[00:14:48] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:14:48] Speaker C: By people in the church who have no respect for them being people and having lives.
[00:14:57] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:14:58] Speaker C: No. No empathy or grace for the pastor's journey in terms of them just finding their own way in the pulpit and.
[00:15:09] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:15:09] Speaker C: Being a human.
[00:15:10] Speaker B: Yep.
[00:15:11] Speaker C: And then same the other way around, you know, leadership who maybe has abused or manipulated. And we all know those stories are. Are real, you know.
Yeah. But again, it comes down to the fact that somebody is literally putting their faith in a person both ways.
[00:15:29] Speaker B: Right.
[00:15:29] Speaker C: Right in you and not in God. And that's just the nuts and bolts of it, is what I see.
[00:15:39] Speaker B: Yeah. No, I love what you're kind of. That whole idea that the people side of it, dealing with people, and just the messiness of it all. I mean, you know, go for it.
[00:15:48] Speaker A: No, no, I just, you know, as you're talking, the litany of individuals that have allowed their.
Their view of God be tainted. How does. How does Duke always say it? Don't let people mess you up about God. Let God straighten you out about people.
[00:16:03] Speaker B: Yeah, that's it.
[00:16:04] Speaker A: And I think that's. That. That. That's where we've missed that a little bit.
[00:16:07] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:16:07] Speaker A: Within our church. And the hurt goes both directions. And I think for me, that the thing that keeps coming up is we are. We. We love hurting each other over personal opinion stuff. It's not even doctrine stuff anymore. It's just personal opinion stuff.
[00:16:19] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:16:20] Speaker A: And.
And. And I wish that we were able to in the church say, hey, we have core doctrines that we hold in a tight fist. Absolutely. And we don't let go of that stuff. But the other things we're gonna. We're gonna argue about, we're gonna have some conflict about, but we're still gonna love each other in the midst of the conflict. Yeah. And we're still going to commit to each other to be on the journey long enough to sort it out, you know?
[00:16:40] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:16:41] Speaker A: I mean, when Jesus turned to Peter, who had been on that journey for a long time with him.
[00:16:45] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:16:45] Speaker A: And basically said, hey, get behind me, Satan, we kind of read that line. We're like, wow, that was a pretty intense line. Could you imagine Peter sitting There. And like. Like that's a curse on him. Yeah. Like. Like the hurt that came from that. Right. And then you see a few chapters later, Peter all of a sudden, denying Jesus and the hurt that comes from that. And. And the important conclusion of that is seeking reconciliation and forgiveness. And it's like, we don't. Because we're such a consumeristic culture, we don't seek reconciliation, which is truly the gospel on display. Reconciliation. Yeah. We. We go for comfort. And so I'm uncomfortable here. I'm. They're disagreeing with my opinion. And I'm not saying this is your situation, Matt, with you and your family, because if there's ethical things that are happening there, you got to call it out. And if they don't respond to it, you got to shake the dust off your feet and say, this is no longer a place of peace. This is. This is. This is engaging in the evil of the world, not pursuing the posture of Christ in that. But we just don't engage in that process of reconciliation.
[00:17:43] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:17:44] Speaker A: You know, we don't do it in our marriages. We don't do it in our churches. We don't do it in our culture. We just. I'm not. I don't like it here. I'm going to go to a different restaurant. I don't like it here. I'm going to turn off the movie and do something else on Netflix.
[00:17:54] Speaker B: Very consumeristic.
[00:17:55] Speaker A: Yeah, very consumeristic. And I think that's feeding into this. This church hurt that so many people have had so long ago.
[00:18:02] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:18:02] Speaker A: And they're still holding it and having never been reconciled with forgiveness and with grace and with that deep love and appreciation for each other.
[00:18:11] Speaker B: Does that make sense?
[00:18:12] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:18:13] Speaker B: No, that makes perfect sense. In fact, I'm kind of intrigued. You said you spoke at the church in Toledo, and I was like, what did you.
What was kind of your encouragement or what was your wisdom that you shared with them during that. During those things? Because I feel like this is a big thing and there's not a silver bullet. It's not like. And now we do this. It's what's. But what did you share. What kind of wisdom did you share when you talked on those on that Sunday?
[00:18:37] Speaker C: Yeah. So basically.
So I started out by sharing a little bit of my story, you know, with the church and talked a little bit about every community that holds these stories of her that we're not alone, and talked about some of the stuff that's going on in culture, too. In terms of the Mars Hill podcast, the Hillsong Podcast, Shiny, happy people. All these documentaries about deconstruction that we see, I feel culturally we keep seeing these stories that leave us in the rubble, just looking at the mess, going, okay, well, that's pretty horrible. So now what?
[00:19:15] Speaker A: You know what?
[00:19:15] Speaker C: Yeah, so I think, I think to me it was the now what? You know, what are we learning from, from, from, from Jesus. And, you know, John 21, you know where Jesus says to Simon Peter, you know, do you love me more than these. Yes, Lord, you know, you know that I love you. Ask him over and over again and feed my lambs and take care of my sheep. It's like the call of Jesus is to take care of the church. That's that. That was the call to Peter that I know that was his call to Peter personally to actually build the church. But I think this call to all of it, if you love me, then build my church. Feed my people. And I think that we all have to decide, like is if. If we love Jesus, will we abandon his people or will we feed his people?
And at some point you have to abandon yourself in a way. I also, though, agree with, you know, what was said earlier, which is sometimes you got to see the difference between a simple disagreement and then there's foolish people. I just talked to my pastor about this actually, recently. There's foolish people. And there are also evil people.
[00:20:22] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:20:22] Speaker C: That are in the church.
[00:20:23] Speaker A: Wolves and sheep clothing, man.
[00:20:25] Speaker C: Yeah. So, like, you do have to at some point come to a place where you go, hey, I'm going to serve the church because I love Jesus regardless of how I feel. And I am going to take the steps to heal because I love his church. Right. So not just. Not just overlook it, but actually heal and do the work of healing. Because I love him, because I love people, so I can continue to serve. But also along the way, look at people who are foolish or evil and causing problems and say, I'm not going to have anything to do with that. And so I do think there's two different categories in which we proceed to find healing. And part of that can be just cutting off certain relationships that are not healthy.
[00:21:10] Speaker A: Absolutely. And you see that with Paul and so many of his writings in the early church. You know, I mean, he. In Timothy, second Timothy, he warns. He's like, hey, warn someone who's grumbling once and if they continue to grumble, do it again. But if they continue to grumble again, cast them out. And I think it's this. Do we have a posture of confrontation in the sense of, am I Willing to receive criticism. Let's do criticism, confrontation. Am I willing to receive that process through that? With the lens of Christ saying, where might I be wrong in this situation? Yeah. Versus a posture of arrogance, which is like, no, I've thought about it. I'm right, you're wrong, you know, And. And it's just. It's messy. It's. It's the reality that relationships are messy. Inside the church, they're messy. Outside the church, they're messy. The thing that makes the church relationships different should be the foundation of. We seek forgiveness in all the wrongs that we're doing.
[00:22:06] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:22:06] Speaker A: Because Christ has forgiven me. So I'm going to seek forgiveness with you. We may have a difference of opinion, but I'm going to seek forgiveness from you because I realize that this dance takes two people. And. And so we're both dancing. So let's figure out how to. How to dance in such a way that Christ leads. Not me, in my opinion, and not you and your opinion.
[00:22:22] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:22:22] Speaker A: But we are both following Christ.
[00:22:25] Speaker C: And that was really the call to action, you know, when I spoke at Calvary, which was a church, was, you know, how do we engage the path of healing and reconciliation so that we can be healthy? Because I feel like more than ever. And also part of the call was the fact that, like, more than ever, the world needs the church or as much as ever.
[00:22:42] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah.
[00:22:43] Speaker C: I mean, the world needs us to be strong. You know, part of my message is that the church is the greatest force of good in the world. We feed more people, we free more slaves. You know. We do. Yeah. The bride. Yeah. Bride of Christ is out there in the world loving people who nobody else loves and solving problems that nobody else can solve. And so the world needs us to be strong and healthy and whole.
And we can't do that if we're not addressing this issue. I feel like it's so important to address this issue.
[00:23:16] Speaker A: So let me ask this question, Matt.
Having kind of sat with this at a level that I don't think many people have. If you were to have a conversation with a guy at a scar shop or a coffee shop or somewhere, and they were dealing with church hurt that something that had happened maybe years ago or recently, what would be some words of wisdom? What would be some encouragement that you would have for them as they begin to maybe finally engage in that process of reconciliation, that journey of restoration of a broken relationship. Yeah.
[00:23:46] Speaker C: Yeah, man. I think something you said earlier is just really important about how it takes two. I think so many people are Focused outwardly on what happened to them.
And it's really the most difficult thing to have to ask yourself some really hard and difficult questions about what is my responsibility in the journey forward. For me, that is the most important question we can ask because we've already spent so much time saying, what's their responsibility? What is it that they did that hurt me? We're dwelling on that constantly. Like, if we don't come to a place, we're willing to look inward or look in the mirror and say, what part of my response to this contributed to my pain or has not allowed me to heal or someone else to heal.
I think until we do that, we're in big trouble. There's no way forward.
[00:24:37] Speaker B: It's funny, I'm noticing this pattern as we talk. It seems like it was like to have a heart of restoration first and foremost. Again, I think that's how we separate the wolves from the sheep.
Do you truly want to restore? Are you just here for your own selfish device? This whole idea of man, of us having this heart to go and am I. Is my goal. Restoration, right. Is my goal. I want to see this. Or is my goal. I need you to hear what I'm trying to say and take it or leave it. I think that's a big thing, that you can find the church where these people are hurt, and it's like, no, no, no. I just need you to see what I'm saying. Not. I don't really care what you're saying.
[00:25:12] Speaker A: Right.
[00:25:13] Speaker B: But instead of going, I need to have a heart to listen. What are you trying to do? And then finally, like, like. But I do know that I took some blame. Like, this is part of. This is my fault, too. You lay out your thing on the table, I'll lay out. You know, I lay out my heart and my issues. You. You do the same. And then we seek to either go, can we work this together? Or can we peaceably move forward?
[00:25:33] Speaker A: Empathy. Empathy is the ability to understand to some degree where the other person might be coming from.
[00:25:39] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:25:39] Speaker A: And why. Why they're coming, the direction that they are. That doesn't mean that you always forgive it. I mean, again, Paul was bold, man. He. He went into some of the. The churches and he wrote letters. He's like, you got to kick these people out because their sin is such that it's actually destroying families as they're trying to follow Christ.
So you need to kick them out or keep them on the edges. Treat them as if they are a stranger. Right. Or treat them as one who no longer believes. But you do have to have that. And that's why I think the ethical things are so important. I mean, the things that take down most leaders within the church are our pride, our sexual infidelity, our embezzlement of funds and resources. Greed. Absolutely. And that's why when Paul's writing to Timothy and Titus, these young pastors in the church, he says, hey, if you want to know who you're looking for, for the leaders, make sure they're. They're mature in their faith.
[00:26:31] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:26:31] Speaker A: That they understand this reconciliation process, that they're not new to this. They may have all the understanding, but if they haven't journeyed through the difficulty in the mess of community, then be wary of that. And then make sure you look for someone who's the husband of one wife. Yeah. Who's not given over to drunkenness, someone who is not motivated by money. You know, that doesn't mean that you're. Have a life of poverty as a church worker, but make sure that you. They have a different perspective about money where they're not trying to make the money. They understand the money is actually God's and we are simply vessels that use it for him and his glory.
[00:27:03] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I agree with you. And I think that's. It's this, this heart to restore because the world really does need us to fight for it. Because we forgot the bigger picture.
That, man, this is about the hope of Jesus. This is the only hope in the world. And so with that, we have this opportunity to stop and say, God, this bigger picture is we're working together to bring hope to hopeless people. Can we see that?
[00:27:30] Speaker A: So funny how God will set things up. We were getting going and we kind of want to start at 10 o'. Clock. You guys don't care when you're listening to this, but all of a sudden, Bill, in the middle of this, and he picks up his coffee and. And it starts to spill and then he just pours over the whole table. All the.
[00:27:46] Speaker B: I fumbled beyond anything.
[00:27:48] Speaker A: And he was so like, I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry. And Kyle and I, the producer, Kyle, we're like, dude, it's all good. Because Kyle and I, with empathy, were like, that could have been us. Number two, we've done that before. And number three, why cry over this spilled coffee? Let's just get after it.
[00:28:04] Speaker B: Let's make it happen. Then they just started cleaning it up.
[00:28:06] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:28:07] Speaker B: But I think that's where, you know, to kind of wrap back in. I do feel like we have the only hope in the world. And so with that, we have an opportunity to bring this to either look at the picture and go, do I want to deal with what hurts me more than me than me looking at what the future has to say? So no, I mean to just to bringing that hope to hopeless people. So anyways, Matt, man, any last thoughts as we're kind of rolling to the end of this?
[00:28:32] Speaker C: Man, Gosh, there could be so many things to say.
Life is hard.
[00:28:38] Speaker A: Yep.
[00:28:40] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:28:41] Speaker C: I, I was talking to a friend yesterday who I saw, who I. We used to be in a small group with, and we were, you know, we used to vacation together and do all the things together and.
And nothing is. Is out of joint there in terms of relationship. It was just this life kind of happened. Right. And, and we're good. Yeah, but we were. I, I saw, you know, them and, and we were just like, man, life is so much harder than we expected.
And the older we get, we thought it would get easier.
And it's really still just a series of finding the joy in the midst of the next challenge. And I think that, you know, life's too way, way too short and way, way too important to not take the challenges head on and get back to the joy of living right. Or even be willing to see the joy and find the reward in every challenge. And part of that is taking it on.
And I just. Anybody out there, I would just encourage them who's kind of just sitting and stewing in church or victimization is a really good feeling because it gives you somebody to blame for pretty much everything in your life.
[00:29:53] Speaker B: Don't be the victim.
[00:29:55] Speaker C: Yeah. And it feels good, man, to be the one who is wronged, you know, even if it's just in your heart opinion or whatever your side is, or maybe you really were wronged, but it's like, it's time to heal. It's time to move forward. It's time to find the joy again. It's time to be part of the whole church that is serving the world because the world needs us. And, and you're an important part of the church.
[00:30:20] Speaker B: I love it. Well, man, so grateful to have you on today, man. And check it. We will put a link for Matt's song Church.
[00:30:27] Speaker A: Yes, absolutely.
[00:30:27] Speaker B: Matt, we love, always love having you on, on the podcast.
You know, even when I start out not being all right, I'm all right.
[00:30:35] Speaker A: Hey, and when you're in Dallas, Fort Worth area, man, we'd love to treat you to a meal, you and your crew.
[00:30:39] Speaker B: Absolutely so we are glad. I know, I know. Matt's got some dates. Check out his. His website, mathamitt.com. right.
Hit that. Right. Awesome. And Matt, thank you so much again, man. We are so great.
And yeah, we'll check out his stuff, man. Have a great day, family. God bless. We're grateful for you.
[00:30:56] Speaker A: God bless.
[00:30:57] Speaker C: Thank you.
[00:30:59] Speaker A: Thanks for listening to the Known Legacy podcast. We'd love to hear from you. So email us your questions or comments to Infonolegacy.
